Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 23 November 2022
23 Nov 2022 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Primary Care
Jackie Baillie’s debate today is timely, because this week we learned about damning minutes of meetings of senior management of Scotland’s health boards, which, ultimately, are under the control of the Scottish Government’s health secretary. The minutes tell us that the health secretary’s NHS bosses have been weighing up charging wealthier patients to access NHS services.
After 500 days of failure in charge of Scotland’s NHS, that is a new low. The cabinet secretary is on record as saying that he would never consider charging anyone to use the NHS and that he finds the idea “abhorrent”. I wonder whether he also finds his record in office abhorrent. Here is a snapshot: the worst cancer waiting times on record—
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur)
LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-06899, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on protecting primary care. I invite members who wish to participat...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
For most people across Scotland, the first point of call when it comes to their health is their general practitioner. GPs are very much at the front line of ...
Gillian Martin (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I will not. The member should listen to this. Inside or outside the UK, the SNP would contemplate a two-tier NHS where those who can afford to pay would get...
Gillian Martin
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jackie Baillie
Lab
The minutes of the discussion are also interesting as they confirm something that we already know—that the cabinet secretary does not listen. He does not lis...
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jackie Baillie
Lab
As for the £1 billion black hole in the NHS budget, we should look no further than Nicola Sturgeon. When she was the health minister, she failed to pass on f...
The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care (Humza Yousaf)
SNP
Does it not show insecurity in her own argument that Jackie Baillie was not able to take a single intervention? This is meant to be a debate, but Jackie Bail...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Humza Yousaf
SNP
At 14 seconds into my speech, I am happy to give way to Daniel Johnson.
Daniel Johnson
Lab
If the cabinet secretary is so keen on interventions, will he answer this question? Did he know about the meeting and agree to it or did it happen without hi...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
It was a meeting of five people with one chief executive present. Believe it or not, with the more than 160,000 healthcare workers that we have, I do not kno...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
Mr Johnson.
Humza Yousaf
SNP
When I have met chief executives and the chairs of health boards, not one of them has ever floated the idea of charging patients. If they did that, I would, ...
Mercedes Villalba (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I have previously raised with the cabinet secretary my constituents’ concerns about the declining quality of patient care at some general practices in Aberde...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
I will give that update. Mercedes Villalba is absolutely right. She has raised the issue with me on several occasions. It is, of course, an issue for the loc...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
There is a little time in hand, so I can give members a bit of time back for taking interventions. I would far prefer that to people shouting from a sedentar...
Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
Jackie Baillie’s debate today is timely, because this week we learned about damning minutes of meetings of senior management of Scotland’s health boards, whi...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
It is better than England.
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
—and the worst delayed discharge record, with an average of 1,832 beds occupied each day due to delayed discharge. I heard the cabinet secretary say “better ...
Gillian Martin (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
SNP
Sandesh Gulhane said that “we live in Scotland.” Yes, we live in Scotland, but the Tories are presiding over the English NHS. Is it not right that we critici...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
Through the chair, please, Ms Martin.
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
The first thing to say is that you should be representing your constituents—
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
Through the chair, Dr Gulhane.
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
The member should be representing her constituents here. The second thing to say is that we cannot trust SNP statistics, as we have found when it comes to e...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
Will Sandesh Gulhane take an intervention?
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
Yes, if I can get the time back.
Humza Yousaf
SNP
I wonder whether Sandesh Gulhane will recognise and apologise for his party’s economic mismanagement, which has meant that my health budget is worth £650 mil...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
I can give you up to five minutes, Dr Gulhane.