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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 27 September 2022

27 Sep 2022 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scotland’s Population
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

I am grateful for that comment, because that was broadly my point. It is also worth noting that the contribution of the European Union towards our net migration had been falling, largely because central and eastern European countries had been getting wealthier.

We will support the Government motion. In some ways, I would like to support the Conservative amendment, because it raises some important points about the nuances and challenges that we face. Ultimately, however, I do not think that we can accept the obliteration of all the points that the motion makes about inward migration. We are supportive of the sentiments in the amendment but will not support it in the division.

We have to bear in mind two critically important contexts when facing this. First, Scotland has a deep productivity challenge that goes beyond just demographics. That is set out very clearly in the Scottish Fiscal Commission’s most recent work, which shows that the wage and employment growth of every single region of Scotland is slower than the UK average. Indeed, Scotland’s employment and wage growth is not only slower than the UK average but slower than that of regions that we would expect to be our rough peers, such as the midlands, the south-west and the north-west. That is not only to do with oil and gas. That is a significant part of the issue, but the regional breakdown shows that the south-east of Scotland also underperforms, and that is an area that is more connected to professional services and tourism than it is to oil and gas. We have to understand that challenge and the importance of growing tax revenues per capita, because that is the fundamental basis of the fiscal framework. Frankly, even without the fiscal framework, that is a critical measure of the health of our public finances.

The more fundamental point in context, however, is that world demographics are inescapable. In the past 50 years, world population growth has halved. It will halve again by the middle of this century and, by the end of the 21st century, world population will be declining.

The fundamental point is therefore that to think that we can solve these problems by attracting people from overseas and by importing our labour is simply not sustainable. We absolutely must mitigate that and try to attract people. However, ultimately, we cannot import our way out of this problem. Indeed, we must rethink our understandings of human capital and how we seek to build our workforce. It is a mistake to continue with a model that seeks to import cheap labour and sustain the economy in that way.

We need to realise that human capital is precious and finite. With that realisation, a number of things follow.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on a motion entitled “Scotland’s population—Meeting the Needs of our Communities, Economy and Public Services”. I invit...
The Cabinet Secretary for the Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to open this important debate on Scotland’s population. Scotland is its people: they are our most important resource. People delive...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
The cabinet secretary has set out some fundamental drivers. Within that, does he acknowledge that inward migration makes a bigger contribution to population ...
Angus Robertson SNP
I agree whole-heartedly. Birth rate issues have been a core part of the deliberations of the Scottish Government and its partners when dealing with the popul...
Douglas Lumsden (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I am reflecting on the cabinet secretary’s point that population decline in Scotland is far greater than that in the rest of the UK. Does he have any idea wh...
Angus Robertson SNP
No, I do not, but I take the opportunity to invite Mr Lumsden and other members to read the document that we are debating and to reflect on the fact that we ...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Angus Robertson SNP
I would like to make some progress on this point. Scotland needs working-age people to settle here in the long term and to raise families here. Our rural co...
Donald Cameron (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
The Scottish Conservatives welcome the opportunity to debate the serious and important issue of Scotland’s population. It is no exaggeration to state that we...
Donald Cameron Con
Daniel Johnson has beaten me to it.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Although Donald Cameron is right that the situation is a challenge, and that, potentially, there are failures, it also comes from some successes in prolongin...
Donald Cameron Con
Absolutely. I was not seeking to make any judgment either about the decisions that people make about having children or about their general health and being ...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Donald Cameron Con
Can I make a bit of progress? We have always believed that we need to target migration at sectors of the economy in Scotland with labour shortages. In our 2...
Jim Fairlie (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) SNP
Does the member accept that the requirement for seasonal agricultural workers exceeds 75,500—it is between 75,000 and 90,000—that the current extension of th...
Donald Cameron Con
I acknowledge the problem, but it is worth noting that the UK Government took action in 2018, and that that action continues. I turn to the Scottish Governm...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I begin by responding to the cabinet secretary’s remarks about the scale and fundamental nature of the challenge. He was absolutely correct. I would put it a...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I think that Daniel Johnson and I were on the same side of the Brexit argument. However, it is important to note that it was estimated that, since Brexit, 3....
Daniel Johnson Lab
I am grateful for that comment, because that was broadly my point. It is also worth noting that the contribution of the European Union towards our net migrat...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Daniel Johnson Lab
I will in a moment. First, in relation to the working-age population, we must maximise skills and wages. We cannot allow people simply to have default skill...
Christine Grahame SNP
I must intervene on behalf of employers in the Borders and Midlothian, because they have certainly not lost “cheap labour”. They do not have bus drivers or p...
Daniel Johnson Lab
If that was how my sentiment came across, that was not my intention at all. However, there is an assumption that we can somehow bring people in from overseas...
Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
Scottish Liberal Democrats recognise the challenge of population decline and agree with the principle that immigration is a good thing that can provide benef...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
We move to the open debate. 15:00
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
Three weeks ago, the Finance and Public Administration Committee received an update from the Scottish Fiscal Commission. Some will remember, perhaps rather t...
Daniel Johnson Lab
I am grateful to the member for giving way, because I rushed through this point. Does the member agree that, fundamentally, this is about work supplementing,...
Kenneth Gibson SNP
I am happy to accept that point of clarification, because that is exactly what I mean. It is about choice, not forcing people to retire at an older age. Many...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I urge Mr Gibson to show respect.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
It has long been recognised that population growth in Scotland will require immigration. The end of freedom of movement within the EU because of a Brexit tha...