Committee
COVID-19 Recovery Committee 09 June 2022
09 Jun 2022 · S6 · COVID-19 Recovery Committee
Item of business
Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I am not expecting unanimity, nor am I proposing in amendment 8 any sort of right of veto for stakeholders against the actions of ministers. It is simply a requirement to consult. The qualification “insofar as is practical” is a recognition that, in a fast-moving public health situation, ministers may require to act very quickly. I do not want to tie the hands of ministers entirely. However, given the experience that we have had over the past two years and the quite serious concern among members of the business community about the negative impact of regulations that were imposed on them without adequate consultation, I think that we should place an obligation on ministers to consult, in so far as it is practical to do so. Finally, my amendment 9 relates to the Covid inquiry. I think that the cabinet secretary will give a statement to update Parliament on that inquiry this afternoon. The inquiry has just been established, and we have not yet had any opportunity to hear any evidence that has been presented to the inquiry or to listen to the view of the inquiry in terms of recommendations and lessons to be learned. It seems to me rather strange that we are rushing to legislate for future pandemics before we have learned the lessons of this one. Therefore, my amendment 9 seeks to delay implementation of the bill until such time as the Covid inquiry has concluded, so that we can see what lessons might be learned. I support my colleague Brian Whittle’s amendments 4 and 5, and I think that he has made some fair points. I am very much in support of Alex Rowley’s amendment 1. In fact, if Mr Rowley had not lodged amendment 1, I would have lodged an amendment in similar terms. Mr Rowley made an eloquent case as to why the Henry VIII powers should be removed, and he gave us a helpful history lesson in relation to the powers of monarchs in that respect. I reiterate the point that I made in response to Mr Mason and Mr Fairlie. Although I welcome the Government amendments that restrict, to an extent, the operation of Henry VIII powers by the Government, the amendments do not remove those powers entirely. Again, this is an issue about putting power in the hands of ministers rather than in the hands of Parliament. Regulations that are introduced by ministers—however qualified they are—can only be voted for or against by Parliament. There is no opportunity for Parliament to amend the regulations. That is why I believe that removing the Henry VIII powers is an essential move, so I will support amendment 1. Although the Government amendments in the group do not go far enough for me, they are nevertheless an improvement on the bill as drafted, and I will be happy to support them.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Siobhian Brown)
SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 16th meeting in 2022 of the COVID-19 Recovery Committee. The first and only item on our agenda is consideration of the Coron...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Con
I have no relevant interests to declare. Section 1—Public health protection measures
The Convener
SNP
The first grouping of amendments is entitled “Public health protection regulations: use of power and safeguards”. Amendment 4, in the name of Brian Whittle, ...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning, everyone. I have only a couple of amendments in the group. The first one, amendment 4, is quite simple. I would like to understand who determin...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Covid Recovery (John Swinney)
SNP
There is an extensive amount of material in the group of amendments, so I have quite a lot to say. I will try to minimise what I have to say on later amendme...
Brian Whittle
Con
The point is that, especially around health, somebody has to gather and assess information and it should not be ministers who do that. You would rely, specif...
John Swinney
SNP
I would expect the CMO to be involved intimately in that process, but as I have just recounted, it will not always be the CMO who is best placed to do that. ...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
In listening to what you have said about Mr Whittle’s amendment 4, I wonder whether there is room to work with Mr Whittle to improve the amendment for stage ...
John Swinney
SNP
I am certainly willing to consider the issues that arise. Colleagues will make a number of points this morning and, perhaps, this evening. I am happy to refl...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
Amendment 1 is the only amendment to the bill that I have lodged. As we have heard from many witnesses at our evidence sessions, the bill is wide ranging, an...
John Swinney
SNP
I understand all the points that Mr Rowley makes, and the strength of his opinion on that point, and I would not question in any way his commendation of John...
Alex Rowley
Lab
I acknowledge that the Deputy First Minister has attempted to address the concerns, but I have to say that—based on the evidence—the attempt does not go far ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Would the member accept that, in effect, Parliament has a veto? That means that a conscious decision would have to be made at the time.
Alex Rowley
Lab
I put that back to Mr Mason: would he accept that the best veto would be to not have the Henry VIII powers in the first place? If we ended up in a situation ...
John Swinney
SNP
In a sense, Mr Rowley has made my argument for me. We all accept the threat of another pandemic. Parliament had to legislate, in extremis, with primary legis...
Alex Rowley
Lab
I have welcomed the steps that the Government has taken. It was suggested that the Government has listened, but those steps do not go far enough. That is the...
John Swinney
SNP
That is not what is happening. It might have been a legitimate accusation in the stage 1 debate, but it is not a legitimate accusation now, because I have lo...
Alex Rowley
Lab
I respectfully disagree. If the Government looked at the evidence and took it seriously, it would support my amendment, which is the only amendment that I am...
Graham Simpson
Con
Before the meeting, Mr Rowley and I made a pact that, if he was brief, I would be brief. I knew that he could not stick to his end of the bargain—but rightly...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
As this is my first contribution, I should refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a member of the Law Society of Scotland and ...
John Mason
SNP
Does the member accept that, as with anything in life, it is better to be prepared? One can never be prepared completely for what will come up, but we all ha...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I thank Mr Mason for that intervention, but, as I set out in the stage 1 debate, there is an alternative approach, which was laid out to the committee by Pro...
Jim Fairlie (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member give way? 09:45
Murdo Fraser
Con
Let me just finish my sentence if I may, Mr Fairlie. The Parliament has already demonstrated, as it did two years ago, that it can move very quickly in an...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Murdo Fraser mentioned Professor de Londras. As the conversation went on, during stage 1, I said to her: “The bill simply means that, in a legislative sense...
Murdo Fraser
Con
We have legislative competence here; it is simply a matter of whether we decide to legislate now, putting the power in the hands of ministers to produce regu...
Brian Whittle
Con
Does Mr Fraser agree that the whole point of amending the proposed legislation is to allow for flexibility, as we do not know what is coming down the track a...
Murdo Fraser
Con
Mr Whittle has made a very fair point. That is the purpose of my amendment 7. If amendment 7 does not attract favour—it might not—I have a number of other a...
John Swinney
SNP
Will Mr Fraser set out what he would consider to be practicable in his consultation exercise? I would contend that there was extensive consultation with a my...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I am not expecting unanimity, nor am I proposing in amendment 8 any sort of right of veto for stakeholders against the actions of ministers. It is simply a r...