Hansard

The Convener (Siobhian Brown) SNP

Good morning and welcome to the 16th meeting in 2022 of the COVID-19 Recovery Committee. The first and only item on our agenda is consideration of the Coron...

Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con

I have no relevant interests to declare. Section 1—Public health protection measures

The Convener SNP

The first grouping of amendments is entitled “Public health protection regulations: use of power and safeguards”. Amendment 4, in the name of Brian Whittle, ...

Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con

Good morning, everyone. I have only a couple of amendments in the group. The first one, amendment 4, is quite simple. I would like to understand who determin...

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Covid Recovery (John Swinney) SNP

There is an extensive amount of material in the group of amendments, so I have quite a lot to say. I will try to minimise what I have to say on later amendme...

Brian Whittle Con

The point is that, especially around health, somebody has to gather and assess information and it should not be ministers who do that. You would rely, specif...

John Swinney SNP

I would expect the CMO to be involved intimately in that process, but as I have just recounted, it will not always be the CMO who is best placed to do that. ...

Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con

In listening to what you have said about Mr Whittle’s amendment 4, I wonder whether there is room to work with Mr Whittle to improve the amendment for stage ...

John Swinney SNP

I am certainly willing to consider the issues that arise. Colleagues will make a number of points this morning and, perhaps, this evening. I am happy to refl...

Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab

Amendment 1 is the only amendment to the bill that I have lodged. As we have heard from many witnesses at our evidence sessions, the bill is wide ranging, an...

John Swinney SNP

I understand all the points that Mr Rowley makes, and the strength of his opinion on that point, and I would not question in any way his commendation of John...

Alex Rowley Lab

I acknowledge that the Deputy First Minister has attempted to address the concerns, but I have to say that—based on the evidence—the attempt does not go far ...

John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP

Would the member accept that, in effect, Parliament has a veto? That means that a conscious decision would have to be made at the time.

Alex Rowley Lab

I put that back to Mr Mason: would he accept that the best veto would be to not have the Henry VIII powers in the first place? If we ended up in a situation ...

John Swinney SNP

In a sense, Mr Rowley has made my argument for me. We all accept the threat of another pandemic. Parliament had to legislate, in extremis, with primary legis...

Alex Rowley Lab

I have welcomed the steps that the Government has taken. It was suggested that the Government has listened, but those steps do not go far enough. That is the...

John Swinney SNP

That is not what is happening. It might have been a legitimate accusation in the stage 1 debate, but it is not a legitimate accusation now, because I have lo...

Alex Rowley Lab

I respectfully disagree. If the Government looked at the evidence and took it seriously, it would support my amendment, which is the only amendment that I am...

Graham Simpson Con

Before the meeting, Mr Rowley and I made a pact that, if he was brief, I would be brief. I knew that he could not stick to his end of the bargain—but rightly...

Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con

As this is my first contribution, I should refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a member of the Law Society of Scotland and ...

John Mason SNP

Does the member accept that, as with anything in life, it is better to be prepared? One can never be prepared completely for what will come up, but we all ha...

Murdo Fraser Con

I thank Mr Mason for that intervention, but, as I set out in the stage 1 debate, there is an alternative approach, which was laid out to the committee by Pro...

Jim Fairlie (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) SNP

Will the member give way? 09:45

Murdo Fraser Con

Let me just finish my sentence if I may, Mr Fairlie. The Parliament has already demonstrated, as it did two years ago, that it can move very quickly in an...

Jim Fairlie SNP

Murdo Fraser mentioned Professor de Londras. As the conversation went on, during stage 1, I said to her: “The bill simply means that, in a legislative sense...

Murdo Fraser Con

We have legislative competence here; it is simply a matter of whether we decide to legislate now, putting the power in the hands of ministers to produce regu...

Brian Whittle Con

Does Mr Fraser agree that the whole point of amending the proposed legislation is to allow for flexibility, as we do not know what is coming down the track a...

Murdo Fraser Con

Mr Whittle has made a very fair point. That is the purpose of my amendment 7. If amendment 7 does not attract favour—it might not—I have a number of other a...

John Swinney SNP

Will Mr Fraser set out what he would consider to be practicable in his consultation exercise? I would contend that there was extensive consultation with a my...

Murdo Fraser Con

I am not expecting unanimity, nor am I proposing in amendment 8 any sort of right of veto for stakeholders against the actions of ministers. It is simply a r...