Committee
COVID-19 Recovery Committee 09 June 2022
09 Jun 2022 · S6 · COVID-19 Recovery Committee
Item of business
Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Good morning and welcome to the 16th meeting in 2022 of the COVID-19 Recovery Committee. The first and only item on our agenda is consideration of the Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome to the meeting the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Covid Recovery, and his supporting officials. I also welcome Graham Simpson and Oliver Mundell. I note that the officials who are seated at the table are here to support the Deputy First Minister, but are not able to speak in the debates on amendments, so members should direct their comments or questions for the Scottish Government to the Deputy First Minister. Members should be aware that some officials who are supporting the Deputy First Minister are seated in the public gallery and will be swapping places, as required, with those who are seated at the table. Parliament has agreed that stage 2 consideration of the bill will be split between this committee and the Criminal Justice Committee. The detail of how the bill has been split at stage 2 is set out in motion S6M-04477. To summarise, I note that the Criminal Justice Committee met yesterday to consider the justice-related provisions in parts 3 and 5 and in the schedule to the bill. Today, this committee will consider the remaining provisions of the bill, including those in parts 1 to 4 and 6, as well as the long title. Once we have made progress on the bill, if there is a good opportunity to take a short comfort break between groupings, I will allow that and briefly suspend the meeting. I will allow the meeting to run until approximately 11.30 am. If we have not concluded stage 2 by that time, I will suspend the meeting and we will reconvene in this room at 5.30 pm. Decision time is currently scheduled to be at 5 pm, so that should allow time for members to get back to this room. Before we begin, I will also briefly explain, for everyone who is watching, the procedure that we will follow this morning. The amendments that have been lodged have been grouped. There will be one debate on each group of amendments. I will call the member who has lodged the first amendment in each group to speak to and move that amendment, and to speak to all the other amendments in the group. I will then call other members who have lodged amendments in that group. Members who have not lodged amendments in the group, but who wish to speak, should try to catch my attention. If he has not already spoken on the group, I will then invite the Deputy First Minister to contribute to the debate. The debate on the group will be concluded by my inviting the member who moved the first amendment in the group to wind up. Following the debate on each group, I will check whether the member who moved the first amendment in the group wishes to press it to a vote or to seek to withdraw it. If they wish to press ahead, I will put the question on the amendment. If a member wishes to withdraw their amendment after it has been moved, they must seek the agreement of the other members to do so. If any member who is present objects, the committee will immediately move to a vote on the amendment. If a member does not want to move their amendment when called to do so, they should say, “Not moved.” Please note that any other member who is present may move the amendment. If no one moves the amendment, I will immediately call the next amendment on the marshalled list. Only committee members are allowed to vote. Voting in a division is done by show of hands. It is important that members keep their hands clearly raised until the clerk has recorded the vote. The committee is required to indicate formally that it has considered and agreed to each section of the bill, so I will put a question on each section at the appropriate point. Now that we have covered the housekeeping matters, we can start the substantive business. Before we do so, because Oliver Mundell has not joined our committee before, I ask him to declare anything that is recorded on his entry in the register of members’ interests that might be relevant to this committee.
References in this contribution
Motions, questions or amendments mentioned by their reference code.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Siobhian Brown)
SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 16th meeting in 2022 of the COVID-19 Recovery Committee. The first and only item on our agenda is consideration of the Coron...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Con
I have no relevant interests to declare. Section 1—Public health protection measures
The Convener
SNP
The first grouping of amendments is entitled “Public health protection regulations: use of power and safeguards”. Amendment 4, in the name of Brian Whittle, ...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning, everyone. I have only a couple of amendments in the group. The first one, amendment 4, is quite simple. I would like to understand who determin...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Covid Recovery (John Swinney)
SNP
There is an extensive amount of material in the group of amendments, so I have quite a lot to say. I will try to minimise what I have to say on later amendme...
Brian Whittle
Con
The point is that, especially around health, somebody has to gather and assess information and it should not be ministers who do that. You would rely, specif...
John Swinney
SNP
I would expect the CMO to be involved intimately in that process, but as I have just recounted, it will not always be the CMO who is best placed to do that. ...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
In listening to what you have said about Mr Whittle’s amendment 4, I wonder whether there is room to work with Mr Whittle to improve the amendment for stage ...
John Swinney
SNP
I am certainly willing to consider the issues that arise. Colleagues will make a number of points this morning and, perhaps, this evening. I am happy to refl...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
Amendment 1 is the only amendment to the bill that I have lodged. As we have heard from many witnesses at our evidence sessions, the bill is wide ranging, an...
John Swinney
SNP
I understand all the points that Mr Rowley makes, and the strength of his opinion on that point, and I would not question in any way his commendation of John...
Alex Rowley
Lab
I acknowledge that the Deputy First Minister has attempted to address the concerns, but I have to say that—based on the evidence—the attempt does not go far ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Would the member accept that, in effect, Parliament has a veto? That means that a conscious decision would have to be made at the time.
Alex Rowley
Lab
I put that back to Mr Mason: would he accept that the best veto would be to not have the Henry VIII powers in the first place? If we ended up in a situation ...
John Swinney
SNP
In a sense, Mr Rowley has made my argument for me. We all accept the threat of another pandemic. Parliament had to legislate, in extremis, with primary legis...
Alex Rowley
Lab
I have welcomed the steps that the Government has taken. It was suggested that the Government has listened, but those steps do not go far enough. That is the...
John Swinney
SNP
That is not what is happening. It might have been a legitimate accusation in the stage 1 debate, but it is not a legitimate accusation now, because I have lo...
Alex Rowley
Lab
I respectfully disagree. If the Government looked at the evidence and took it seriously, it would support my amendment, which is the only amendment that I am...
Graham Simpson
Con
Before the meeting, Mr Rowley and I made a pact that, if he was brief, I would be brief. I knew that he could not stick to his end of the bargain—but rightly...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
As this is my first contribution, I should refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a member of the Law Society of Scotland and ...
John Mason
SNP
Does the member accept that, as with anything in life, it is better to be prepared? One can never be prepared completely for what will come up, but we all ha...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I thank Mr Mason for that intervention, but, as I set out in the stage 1 debate, there is an alternative approach, which was laid out to the committee by Pro...
Jim Fairlie (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member give way? 09:45
Murdo Fraser
Con
Let me just finish my sentence if I may, Mr Fairlie. The Parliament has already demonstrated, as it did two years ago, that it can move very quickly in an...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Murdo Fraser mentioned Professor de Londras. As the conversation went on, during stage 1, I said to her: “The bill simply means that, in a legislative sense...
Murdo Fraser
Con
We have legislative competence here; it is simply a matter of whether we decide to legislate now, putting the power in the hands of ministers to produce regu...
Brian Whittle
Con
Does Mr Fraser agree that the whole point of amending the proposed legislation is to allow for flexibility, as we do not know what is coming down the track a...
Murdo Fraser
Con
Mr Whittle has made a very fair point. That is the purpose of my amendment 7. If amendment 7 does not attract favour—it might not—I have a number of other a...
John Swinney
SNP
Will Mr Fraser set out what he would consider to be practicable in his consultation exercise? I would contend that there was extensive consultation with a my...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I am not expecting unanimity, nor am I proposing in amendment 8 any sort of right of veto for stakeholders against the actions of ministers. It is simply a r...