Committee
Economy and Fair Work Committee 18 May 2022
18 May 2022 · S6 · Economy and Fair Work Committee
Item of business
Town Centres and Retail
Pauline Smith (Development Trusts Association Scotland)
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Our members are from rural and urban locations, so they differ quite drastically from one area to the next. You spoke about the less represented individuals. Sometimes, it just takes one person to change things, but they need the backing and the powers to do that. Our members have been heavily involved in the conversations that we have been having about local democracy, and about a community wealth building bill and the powers that might come with that. They have all been quite excited about what could be. Sometimes, there can be a lot of talk, but if you do not see action and people cannot voice their opinions about what they want, and if people do not have the powers to do what they want to do and there are lots of hoops to jump through, they lose the will and the incentive to do it. The length of time that it can take becomes a struggle. We have all been in situations in which it has taken a long time to get through the process and it is difficult to keep individuals’ motivation up. Our members have a wide variety of assets. Our community ownership support service has been heavily involved; I am sure that you guys are aware of the work that the service has done across Scotland. Huntly Development Trust is one of our members—I think that committee members have been to visit some members. That trust has taken on some of the shops in its area. It has been outstanding and has taken such a creative approach to what it wants to develop. Our members definitely have such creativity. Once you give ownership to the community, the ideas start to spin. It is not all about planning and the classes of development that you must have in the area. When we hand ownership to the community and development trust members, we get creativity—we get the historic aspect, arts and crafts, clothing, recycling and reuse all together by giving power to communities to make things a reality. On the enterprise side of things, it is possible that previously not many people considered the possibility of opening a social enterprise in a town centre because of the cost—they probably did not have the money to spend on that. I have read a lot of the papers on the town centre action plan; it is interesting to see pricing structures. Allowing charities to enter town centres without the financial burden that would have existed previously gives them the chance to grow, to create their own money and to circulate that money within the economy. It allows community wealth building and so on.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Claire Baker)
Lab
Good morning and welcome to the 14th meeting in 2022 of the Economy and Fair Work Committee. Our first item of business continues our evidence gathering in o...
Martin Avila (Community Enterprise in Scotland)
I thank the committee for giving me the chance to speak this morning. How we engage the less listened to communities is a wicked problem. Communities in whi...
The Convener
Lab
Martin Avila has referred to the evidence that we heard last week. I do not know whether Dr Orr has had a chance to look at last week’s evidence, which we to...
Dr Allison Orr (University of Glasgow)
I thank the committee for inviting me along. There is certainly an issue with regard to resourcing in planning departments. They are expected to take on more...
The Convener
Lab
I come to Pauline Smith. Would you say a bit about the development trust organisations, how your members engage with communities and how important they are w...
Pauline Smith (Development Trusts Association Scotland)
Our members are from rural and urban locations, so they differ quite drastically from one area to the next. You spoke about the less represented individuals...
The Convener
Lab
I will allow other members to explore some of those issues in more depth in a moment. The committee went to visit Midsteeple Quarter. The community ownership...
Pauline Smith
Yes—that would absolutely be helpful. Obviously, I am passionate about community ownership support. There should be a go-to support provider, but there are o...
The Convener
Lab
I bring in Maggie Chapman, to be followed by Fiona Hyslop.
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
Good morning. Thank you for joining us. Pauline Smith mentioned community wealth building. As you will be aware, the Scottish Government has committed to in...
Pauline Smith
We are meeting Ted Howard this afternoon: he is coming to us. He is the guru of community wealth building and is doing a tour at the moment. One pitfall wou...
Maggie Chapman
Green
Dr Orr, we are talking about creating liveable, vibrant and thriving town centres that support the communities that live in and around them. What are the opp...
Dr Orr
In some of the cities that I have studied, there has been a change in the number of residential units, but communities and public services have not kept pace...
Maggie Chapman
Green
Martin, what opportunities are there to drive community enterprise and engagement through legislation?
Martin Avila
If it is okay, I will speak first about the idea of pitfalls. There can be a suggestion of false equivalence between community-run enterprises and general bu...
Fiona Hyslop (Linlithgow) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning. We have heard that every town is unique and that any solution has to be unique to the town, and Pauline Smith noted that we need to have strong...
Pauline Smith
I think that the ball lands with us. We need to work with BIDs, development trusts and CEIS to support and pool our expertise in general. We ask communities ...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
What about working with councils?
Pauline Smith
Our community ownership support service and our community shares departments have gone out to local authorities to engage in training—well, we might want to ...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
Martin Avila said that more is needed in terms of community development, and we have heard calls for council-based activity, town champions and more planners...
Martin Avila
Both—everywhere.
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I know, but you will have to—
Martin Avila
That is the challenge that colleagues around the table face. We have limited resources and we have to understand where to direct them. I know that this is ...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I move to Allison Orr. When it comes to your concerns about rentier experience, we are, potentially, going to move to an economic model in which there is com...
Dr Orr
When it comes to enterprises, cultural change among landowners is important. We have started to see that cultural change, through the pandemic and even befor...
Martin Avila
May I come in on one point?
The Convener
Lab
If it is brief. We are trying to make progress.
Martin Avila
Yes. Sorry, convener. We have to end false equivalence. Some of the previous Scottish Government rental guarantee schemes were there for developers to be ab...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
So do you recommend rental guarantees for social enterprises that provide housing in town centres?
Martin Avila
Yes. Community Land Scotland produced a great report called “Urban Dwelling: A Vision for Urban Community-led Housing in Scotland” that made recommendations ...