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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 11 May 2022

11 May 2022 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Violent Crime
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

The cabinet secretary said that there must be no tolerance of misogyny in our justice system. The reports this week were sickening, and I put on record that no one with misogynistic attitudes should have any part whatever in our justice system.

Justice is complex. In my view, the system serves three fundamental functions: to provide security to our communities and people, to reform behaviour and to facilitate payback to communities. Above all, it must be trusted.

This is not simple. It is not about binary choices. Frankly, no one is helped if we discuss the matter in the language of Daily Mail headlines. No progress is made by suggesting that the Government is prioritising criminals’ rights over those of victims. No progress is made by claiming that ever-increasing sentences are the fix for our justice system. However, I say to the Government that progress is not made by uttering glib phrases or hiding behind the idea of being progressive. Progress is not made if people think that a presumption against short sentences means that we have a progressive justice system—we do not.

Likewise, it is not helpful to have an auction around police numbers. It is not just about the numbers. Any serving police officer who is asked about the 17,234 figure will say that they hate it, because it is not about numbers; it is about investment in the system that lies behind those numbers and that helps officers to do their work. In the establishment of Police Scotland, there was a complete failure to put those things in place.

If increasing sentences and putting more and more people away worked, the United States of America would be crime free. I think that all members know that it is not. It is also based on the false rationalisation of thinking that criminals go around wondering how long they might get in prison for a particular crime and making choices based on that. That is utter nonsense. That is not how people think and it is not how criminals think, so it is an utterly false and bunk choice.

Audrey Nicoll described Jamie Greene’s motion as a slew of non-contextualised numbers, which is correct, because he and other Conservatives presented numbers but provided no analysis of what they sought to do about it.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-04320, in the name of Jamie Greene, on tackling violent crime. I would be grateful if members who wish to...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome Keith Brown to the chamber. I suspect that his ears have been burning for the past two hours. I want to start my comments by saying two things abo...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I now call on Keith Brown to speak to and move amendment S6M-04320.2. You have up to six minutes, cabinet secretary. 16:17
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans (Keith Brown) SNP
I start by reflecting that the motion from the Conservatives conflicts with this Parliament’s majority position in supporting the new justice vision at its l...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Thank for you inviting me to make an intervention. That is news to me. I will have to go back and look into what you said, and if it is correct I will come b...
Keith Brown SNP
I am happy to pass on the press statement; it was on three pages of popular newspapers and was also repeated by two of his colleagues. One of those colleague...
Russell Findlay Con
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Keith Brown SNP
I do not have much time, but I will take a brief intervention.
Russell Findlay Con
It relates to the very point that the cabinet secretary made. I now remember the exact information to which he referred. The issue was due to duff informatio...
Keith Brown SNP
I commend Russell Findlay for that apology, which is received in the spirit in which it was given. The Conservative motion highlights police numbers. I am h...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Keith Brown SNP
I do not have time, unfortunately. We must rethink how we use custody in Scotland. Our consultation on bail and release was the first step in a wider discus...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Please conclude, cabinet secretary.
Keith Brown SNP
Let me conclude by highlighting, once again, the strong support for the Scottish Government’s strategy. It is endorsed by the national justice board of justi...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
The Tory motion has a lot of important issues packed into it, and it is impossible to address all those very serious issues in five minutes. We agree with ma...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I recall Liam Kerr choosing to kick off his time as the Tory justice spokesperson in the previous parliamentary session by leading a debate on restorative ju...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I wonder whether the member will agree with me that the war about numbers that takes place on that side of the chamber is unsatisfactory because it masks the...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Mr Johnson, in future, could you face your microphone?
Daniel Johnson Lab
I apologise.
Liam McArthur LD
I heard Mr Johnson and I certainly agree with him. Help to reduce the likelihood of reoffending and increase the likelihood of making a positive contributio...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the open debate. 16:34
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I am honoured to be contributing to the debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives, and I fully support the motion lodged by my colleague, Jamie Greene. ...
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
Yesterday, two events drew my attention, both of which are relevant, in their own way, to this afternoon’s justice debate. The first was the Queen’s speech, ...
Jamie Greene Con
Will the member give way?
Audrey Nicoll SNP
I will come back to the member if I have time at the end of my speech. Let us look at homicide. The Scottish Government national statistics publication on h...
Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I believe that we should be candid in this chamber. Protecting people from violent crime is a priority for any Government, yet, under the SNP Government, the...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
The cabinet secretary said that there must be no tolerance of misogyny in our justice system. The reports this week were sickening, and I put on record that ...
Jamie Greene Con
The context is in this table, in black and white. These are the Government’s statistics on rising crime in the past decade: sexual crime is up, sexual assaul...
Daniel Johnson Lab
The member is right—those statistics are bad—so he should come up with a solution. What are the alternatives? What Jamie Greene should have highlighted far m...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
First, I thank Daniel Johnson and Liam McArthur. I do not agree with everything that they said, but their speeches were nuanced and thoughtful, and did not s...