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Committee

Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee 23 February 2022

23 Feb 2022 · S6 · Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee
Item of business
Continued Petitions
Witchcraft Act 1563 (Pardon and Memorial) (PE1855)
Claire Mitchell Watch on SPTV
Certainly. Another misconception is that the trials were religious trials, but they were conducted by the state, and that is why it is appropriate for the state to give an apology. Allegations would be made in the local community. All sorts of allegations were made, but they usually related to an ill befalling someone and, in some way, a narrative being connected with that person, whether they had quarrelled in the market or they had had a fight. Sadly, examples were as simple as seeing someone out late at night, or seeing someone dancing beside a fire. People might have been doing very ordinary things, but they were attributed to being a witch and doing the work of the devil. When an accusation was made, the accused was usually incarcerated in a local place such as the tollbooth. They were kept there for a period of time, remanded until they were questioned. Questioning took the form of keeping the accused awake, watching and waiting, and asking them questions. In a sense, Scotland was in advance of other countries at the time because they did not physically torture people as much as other places. Although there were instances of physical torture, in Scotland people used to keep the accused awake and ask them questions, not just for hours on end but for days on end. Of course, we know that that is one of the most insidious forms of torture, because people lose their minds when they are not allowed to sleep. We know about that because people have traced the records of people taking turns to sit and ask questions. We even have records of how many candles were burnt through the night, for example, because all those things had to be accounted for. When a confession was obtained, it would be used as the basis for the evidence. However, it was not enough to confess alone to the crimes. As people understood it, witches worked in covens, so they would not be acting alone. They would be asked for further names. People in delirium would, of course, give the names of friends and family, which, sadly, led to those people being brought in and the same thing happening. We can see why the witchcraft accusations would grow exponentially. 10:15 Once a confession was obtained, the state would prosecute the matter and the women would be brought before court. They would not be able to give evidence in their own right because it was not competent for them to do so. In particular, it was not competent for women to be witnesses in a courtroom. At that time, I do not think that it was competent for most, or any, accused people to give evidence, but in any event women were not competent witnesses. However, witnesses would be brought to court, somewhat in the same way as is done now, to say what had happened to them—if there had been a fight, they would say what had been said or what they had seen the accused do—and then evidence of the confession would be led. Then, as now, confession was a very powerful statement against self-interest. In the modern day, people confess to things that they have not done, even when they are not under torture. Other people may find that very strange, but we know psychologically that people confess to things that they have not done. In those sorts of cases, that would have been exactly what would have happened. Someone akin to a modern-day judge would then decide whether the person was guilty of witchcraft. The sentence that was imposed on people who were found guilty was execution. We see one or two instances of people being banished as witches, but if the law was being applied properly—which we imagine that it was, in most cases—execution would happen. People would be strangled and then their body was burnt, so there was no ability for loved ones to bury them or anything like that.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Convener (David Torrance) SNP
Welcome to the third meeting in 2022 of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee. There are apologies from our convener, Jackson Carlaw, and ...
Claire Mitchell QC
Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to speak and to answer any questions that you have for us. We are delighted about the progress that has already b...
The Deputy Convener SNP
Zoe Venditozzi, do you have any initial comments?
Zoe Venditozzi
I will just say thank you for having us.
The Deputy Convener SNP
I will start the questions. What first led you to explore the experience of witches who were convicted in Scotland, and why did you feel that it was importan...
Claire Mitchell
I work as a lawyer, and I have specialised over past years in cases that involve miscarriages of justice. I therefore look through the lens of history at whe...
The Deputy Convener SNP
Thank you for that comprehensive answer. I was going to speak about pardons, an apology and a national monument, all of which you have covered. Does Zoe Vend...
Zoe Venditozzi
It is important and it has become increasingly obvious to us during the campaign that, sadly, the issue is not relegated to the past. There are countries aro...
The Deputy Convener SNP
Thank you. My colleagues will now ask questions.
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP) SNP
Good morning, Zoe and Claire. Thanks for being with us. What would lead to a woman being accused of witchcraft? There are some misapprehensions about the ty...
Zoe Venditozzi
Sadly, that could have been anything. The person might have fallen out with somebody about the price that they had paid for something, they might have been a...
Claire Mitchell
There are misconceptions that the people who were accused were healers or midwives—that is a common misconception—that they had red hair, or that there was s...
The Deputy Convener SNP
Ruth, do you have any further questions?
Ruth Maguire SNP
I do. Will I just keep coming back in, convener?
The Deputy Convener SNP
Yes, please, and indicate when you are finished.
Ruth Maguire SNP
Okay. I will not wait for an invite. Who would normally conduct the trials, and what sort of evidence would be used to secure a conviction? Claire, you gave...
Claire Mitchell
Certainly. Another misconception is that the trials were religious trials, but they were conducted by the state, and that is why it is appropriate for the st...
Ruth Maguire SNP
In your opening statement, you mentioned 2,500 people being executed and 4,000 being tortured. How confident are you that the figures set out in the survey o...
Claire Mitchell
The experts have obviously done a great deal of research on the matter. In so far as they have been able to, they have gone through the records of what happe...
Ruth Maguire SNP
That does say something to the scale of it. I want to ask about the change in law in 1735 after the so-called “glorious revolution”. Will you talk a bit mor...
Claire Mitchell
I will answer that legal question and then perhaps Zoe Venditozzi can take over. The state and the church vehemently believed that the devil was among us....
Ruth Maguire SNP
Zoe, do you have anything to add on those questions?
Zoe Venditozzi
No. Claire has definitely covered everything from the legal perspective. I am not a lawyer; I have come into this like any normal person who does not know an...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It has been fascinating to hear the history that you have given us and to gain an understanding of the culture in Scotland at the time and the power of the s...
Claire Mitchell
We of course acknowledge that these things happened a very long time ago. That is a relevant and necessary question for us to be able to answer. My first ans...
Zoe Venditozzi
I would just say that, although we have changed a lot over time and have, obviously, grown and now view ourselves as being more civilised, there is still an ...
Alexander Stewart Con
You talk about the miscarriage of justice, and I think that many people would identify that as the core issue. However, many would also identify the fact tha...
Claire Mitchell
Absolutely—I could not agree more. That is exactly how it was. What we want for Scotland in the 21st century and looking forward is a generation that comes a...
The Deputy Convener SNP
I believe that Ruth Maguire has some more questions. 10:30
Ruth Maguire SNP
I think that they have been covered. I wanted to explore a bit more the discriminatory nature of the issue, but the petitioners have told us in their evidenc...