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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 15 December 2021

15 Dec 2021 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Ending the Not Proven Verdict
MacGregor, Fulton SNP Coatbridge and Chryston Watch on SPTV

I understand why Jamie Greene lodged his motion on behalf of his party. He is on the Criminal Justice Committee, as I am, so he has heard at first hand the heartbreaking evidence from witnesses about their feeling that they have been failed, and sometimes—in cases such as those that we are discussing—even retraumatised by the justice system.

However, there can be no doubt that today’s motion is nothing more than simple politicking, because Jamie Greene knows, as other members have said, that the Scottish Government is currently reviewing the not proven verdict. As members of the Criminal Justice Committee, he and I both know that there is a genuine and cross-party commitment to ensuring that Scotland’s justice system is fair and transparent, and that it meets the needs of modern society. The three-verdict legal system, which is unique to Scotland, has long been divisive, and we all have our personal views on it.

Although it is likely that I share the sentiments of Mr Greene, Ms Gallacher and other Tory members who have spoken on the issue, Mr Greene knows that our legal system is very complex, that we must think carefully about what to do and that we must not make the situation worse for complainers—as Rape Crisis Scotland fears we could.

The detailed and extensive consultation that has been launched will ensure that the matter is considered carefully and that all aspects of it are taken into account. As members know, the consultation opened on Monday and will run until March. The important and integral issues of jury size, the majority that is required for conviction and the requirement for corroboration will also be taken into account.

The issues are complex, and our Parliament has been here before with the requirement for corroboration, to which, ultimately, no changes were made. Therefore, a period of thorough consultation is needed to ensure that we get it right. Unfortunately, that means that the process will take some time, but I would prefer that the job be done well rather than rushed through, with the outcome being its not being fit for purpose. Legal professionals, the third sector and people who have lived experience of the system all need time to give considered opinions. We cannot reach a decision until we have listened to all the key stakeholders and have a full understanding of how all the different parts of the system might work together.

The Scottish Government is committed to ensuring that victims’ rights are at the heart of delivering justice. The programme for government promised to make it a priority to put the voices of victims and a trauma-informed approach at the heart of Scottish justice. This year, the Scottish Government will unveil a new funding programme that will ensure that there is practical and emotional support in place for victims, survivors and witnesses of crime.

We will also introduce a new framework that will be specific to the justice system and will give staff the knowledge and skills that they need to understand and adopt a trauma-informed approach. That will help them to support victims more compassionately. Having worked in the social work justice sector, I think that that will really overhaul the system and give victims the support that they need.

Most important is that we will also prepare for the necessary legislative process to appoint a victims commissioner. The commissioner will provide an independent voice for victims, champion their views and encourage policy makers and criminal justice agencies to put victims’ rights at the heart of justice.

We also know that serious consideration will be given to the recommendations of the Dorrian review, including those on the introduction of specialist courts and allowing victims to prerecord evidence. The cabinet secretary spoke about aspects of that at a very useful meeting of the Criminal Justice Committee this morning, for which I thank him. That builds on important work that was done in the previous session—for example, on the Vulnerable Witnesses (Criminal Evidence) (Scotland) Bill, which was passed.

It is clear that we are committed to supporting victims and that the three-verdict legal system is undergoing the review that has been called for and is needed. If anything to make the system fairer and more trauma informed for complainers and victims can be done, we will do it. However, we will not make matters worse, so we must do this with careful consideration. I believe that that is exactly what the Government will do.

17:31  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
I remind members of the Covid-related measures that are in place and that face coverings should be worn when moving around the chamber and across the Holyroo...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
There is nobody on the Government front bench.
The Presiding Officer NPA
You are quite right: there is no one on the Government front bench. There is now. Thank you. 16:51
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I am pleased and privileged to use our precious commodity of Opposition business to have today’s debate. Interruption. Apologies, but may I continue? The de...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted that the member is trolling the archives for my words of wisdom, but he will also recall that, at the time, I opposed the abolition of corrobo...
Jamie Greene Con
I am glad that the member raises that issue, and I will cover that point explicitly in my comments. I hope that there is consensus in the chamber on the nee...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans (Keith Brown) SNP
Just to be clear, I will move the amendment in my name and I will also support the Labour Party’s amendment. I will not support the motion from Jamie Greene....
Jamie Greene Con
The cabinet secretary seems to be going to great lengths to excuse the status quo. He is the fourth justice secretary to promise action on the issue. What co...
Keith Brown SNP
I think that it is really wrong for Jamie Greene to characterise what I have said up to this point as defending the status quo. I am laying out the reasons w...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I warmly welcome the debate, and I will move the amendment in the name of Pauline McNeill, which says that we recognise that many survivors of sexual crimes ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I, too, pay tribute to campaigners such as Speak Out Survivors, Miss M and others for their courage, candour and commitment to change in order to deliver imp...
Meghan Gallacher (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Three weeks ago, the chamber stood united to condemn violence against women. We remembered women who had had their lives cut tragically short and we promised...
Keith Brown SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Meghan Gallacher Con
I have only four minutes and I would like to make some progress—I am sorry. We cannot continue to ignore a justice system that favours the perpetrator over ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Like Martin Whitfield, I am a late substitute to the debate. We shall see how we get on. We have the three verdicts and the suggestion is that we move to tw...
Christine Grahame SNP
Beyond reasonable doubt.
John Mason SNP
Christine Grahame reminds me that it has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. For example, the accused might be innocent or they might be guilty but the Cr...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I give this speech on behalf of my colleague, Claire Baker MSP, who is unable to contribute because of technical difficulties. I also take this opportunity t...
Christine Grahame SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
The Presiding Officer NPA
I am sorry, Ms Grahame. The member is now over time and is concluding.
Martin Whitfield Lab
I apologise. Much is made of the lesser burden of proof in civil cases. Lady Dorrian’s report on justice responses to sexual crimes examines the way in whic...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Please conclude, Mr Whitfield.
Martin Whitfield Lab
Under the current system, there is no evidence to support the argument that more cases going to court will result in a higher conviction rate.
The Presiding Officer NPA
Thank you, Mr Whitfield.
Martin Whitfield Lab
More people must experience trauma but achieve no conviction—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you. 17:27
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
I understand why Jamie Greene lodged his motion on behalf of his party. He is on the Criminal Justice Committee, as I am, so he has heard at first hand the h...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. The Scottish legal system takes great pride in its reputation—specifically in elements th...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
The not proven verdict, which is perhaps the most unique aspect of Scots criminal law, has split opinion through the centuries. It is easy to see how controv...
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?