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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 15 December 2021

15 Dec 2021 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Ending the Not Proven Verdict

I, too, pay tribute to campaigners such as Speak Out Survivors, Miss M and others for their courage, candour and commitment to change in order to deliver improvements in how our justice system deals with the heinous crimes of sexual violence and rape against the backdrop of what is happening, as Katy Clark just rightly described.

This proposal has been the subject of cross-party discussions through the course of the previous session and during the early months of this one. I thank colleagues across the Parliament as well as the current and previous justice secretaries for the collaborative approach that has been taken on the issue. The discussions have been informal and behind the scenes, and I think that it is right that we now have an opportunity to debate the matter in a more public sense, so I thank Jamie Greene for providing this opportunity. His motion perhaps jumps the gun, but I think that it points to the right direction of travel. We will support the Government’s amendment as well as Pauline McNeill’s amendment, which makes an important argument about the risks of retraumatising victims.

For some time, Scottish Liberal Democrats have been sympathetic to calls for the not proven verdict to be dropped. It does not really sit well in a modern legal context, not least because there is no fixed legal definition of the verdict, which was established through custom and precedent in the Scottish courts in the 17th and 18th centuries. We know from the 2019 research that the cabinet secretary referred to that it can be confusing for juries, leading to higher rates of acquittal, as Humza Yousaf has previously acknowledged. It is confusing for the public, too, as it often stigmatises an accused person by appearing not to clear them of charges. It routinely fails to provide closure for victims. The case for change is therefore strong, if not compelling.

However, we do a disservice to those campaigning for change, to those who are tasked with enforcing our laws and to our legal system itself if we ignore or downplay the complexities or interconnections that I think have been acknowledged this afternoon. I note that the Law Society briefing points to the concerns that have been raised across the profession, even among some of those who are supportive of a move from three verdicts to two.

It is important that we understand those concerns, that we reflect on them and that we seek, as far as possible, to address them. I welcome the launch of the consultation over the past few days. It presents a chance to consider a range of views, including those of opponents, and, crucially, those of victims and those with lived experience.

The consultation will need to consider not just the not proven verdict, as Christine Grahame rightly highlighted in her intervention. It will need to consider the size and make-up of juries and of the majorities that are needed to convict, and the right to legal anonymity for victims in sexual offences prosecutions, which exists in other parts of the United Kingdom but does not exist here, notwithstanding the steps that are often taken by courts to protect that anonymity. It should look again at corroboration, although I hope that lessons have been learned and that the Scottish Government will not seek to rerun battles through the abolition of corroboration. Importantly, it should do more to protect victims from being retraumatised by the justice system that is supposed to protect them. That was very well picked up in Pauline McNeill’s amendment.

Lord Carloway stated recently that

“Cross-examination should not be used as a means of intimidating or humiliating witnesses”,

and he is absolutely right. There is a great deal of common ground in that area, and I hope that we can continue in that vein while also having the necessary challenge function as we pursue the improvements that we all believe are required.

I thank Jamie Greene again for enabling the debate—if not perhaps for wanting to bypass the consultative process that is needed before we arrive at an end point, which I sense has a growing inevitability about it.

17:15  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
I remind members of the Covid-related measures that are in place and that face coverings should be worn when moving around the chamber and across the Holyroo...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
There is nobody on the Government front bench.
The Presiding Officer NPA
You are quite right: there is no one on the Government front bench. There is now. Thank you. 16:51
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I am pleased and privileged to use our precious commodity of Opposition business to have today’s debate. Interruption. Apologies, but may I continue? The de...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted that the member is trolling the archives for my words of wisdom, but he will also recall that, at the time, I opposed the abolition of corrobo...
Jamie Greene Con
I am glad that the member raises that issue, and I will cover that point explicitly in my comments. I hope that there is consensus in the chamber on the nee...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans (Keith Brown) SNP
Just to be clear, I will move the amendment in my name and I will also support the Labour Party’s amendment. I will not support the motion from Jamie Greene....
Jamie Greene Con
The cabinet secretary seems to be going to great lengths to excuse the status quo. He is the fourth justice secretary to promise action on the issue. What co...
Keith Brown SNP
I think that it is really wrong for Jamie Greene to characterise what I have said up to this point as defending the status quo. I am laying out the reasons w...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I warmly welcome the debate, and I will move the amendment in the name of Pauline McNeill, which says that we recognise that many survivors of sexual crimes ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I, too, pay tribute to campaigners such as Speak Out Survivors, Miss M and others for their courage, candour and commitment to change in order to deliver imp...
Meghan Gallacher (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Three weeks ago, the chamber stood united to condemn violence against women. We remembered women who had had their lives cut tragically short and we promised...
Keith Brown SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Meghan Gallacher Con
I have only four minutes and I would like to make some progress—I am sorry. We cannot continue to ignore a justice system that favours the perpetrator over ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Like Martin Whitfield, I am a late substitute to the debate. We shall see how we get on. We have the three verdicts and the suggestion is that we move to tw...
Christine Grahame SNP
Beyond reasonable doubt.
John Mason SNP
Christine Grahame reminds me that it has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. For example, the accused might be innocent or they might be guilty but the Cr...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I give this speech on behalf of my colleague, Claire Baker MSP, who is unable to contribute because of technical difficulties. I also take this opportunity t...
Christine Grahame SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
The Presiding Officer NPA
I am sorry, Ms Grahame. The member is now over time and is concluding.
Martin Whitfield Lab
I apologise. Much is made of the lesser burden of proof in civil cases. Lady Dorrian’s report on justice responses to sexual crimes examines the way in whic...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Please conclude, Mr Whitfield.
Martin Whitfield Lab
Under the current system, there is no evidence to support the argument that more cases going to court will result in a higher conviction rate.
The Presiding Officer NPA
Thank you, Mr Whitfield.
Martin Whitfield Lab
More people must experience trauma but achieve no conviction—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you. 17:27
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
I understand why Jamie Greene lodged his motion on behalf of his party. He is on the Criminal Justice Committee, as I am, so he has heard at first hand the h...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. The Scottish legal system takes great pride in its reputation—specifically in elements th...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
The not proven verdict, which is perhaps the most unique aspect of Scots criminal law, has split opinion through the centuries. It is easy to see how controv...
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?