Committee
Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill Committee, 04 Feb 2003
04 Feb 2003 · S1 · Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill Committee
Item of business
Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The Education, Culture and Sport Committee has been keen to involve children in our processes. We have sought to do so in a meaningful rather than tokenistic way, which I hope we have achieved.The aim of amendment 4 is to ensure that the Parliament further involves children and young people and organisations that work with and for children and young people in the process of appointing the commissioner. However, the amendment is unnecessary and might not achieve what it sets out to do.I am more than happy to reiterate our commitment to involving children and young people in the recruitment of the commissioner, but the standing orders do not allow for a child or young person to sit on the selection panel for the appointment of the commissioner. Under rule 3.11.3 of the standing orders, the selection panel will be made up of the Presiding Officer, the convener of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee and at least four, but not more than seven, members of the Scottish Parliament.The Education, Culture and Sport Committee intends that the selection panel will take account of the views of children and young people in a meaningful way. That could be done through informal questioning of potential candidates or consultation on the job description. The reality of the situation—and what my legal note says I must say—is that decisions on candidates will be for the selection panel. I am keen to ensure that I say the right thing by following my legal note.Informal questioning might entail candidates answering questions from a diverse panel of children and young people who might be chosen from key children's agencies such as Save the Children, Barnardo's and Children 1st. The appointment panel might observe that interaction and use it as part of the overall assessment of candidates' performance. That would allow children and young people to have a significant input, although it is clear that their input will not be to the extent of choosing the successful candidate.The Education, Culture and Sport Committee's commitment to involving children and young people in the recruitment process has been relayed to the Parliament's corporate policy unit, which is responsible for overseeing such appointments. I expect that the CPU will wish to consider recent experience in Wales, where children and young people had input into the process of appointing the children's commissioner for Wales.Given what amendment 4 seeks to achieve, it is oddly worded in that it would require consultation only on the process. I presume that the intention is that children and young people should have a say in deciding what kind of person should be the commissioner. However, it is not clear that the amendment would allow input into the actual proceedings, by which I mean the decision making involved in recruitment and appointment. The amendment might allow for input into the process and procedures that lead to the decision on who should get the job, but I wonder whether it would allow input into the decision itself.Amendment 4 would mean that the Parliament would have to consult not only children and young people but organisations that work with and for children and young people. It is likely that whoever takes up the post of commissioner will, like Peter Clarke in Wales, have worked in the children's sector. If the amendment were agreed to and such a situation arose, children's organisations would be required to input into the decision on which of their colleagues should become the commissioner. That could raise any number of questions about objectivity, transparency and propriety.Given the Education, Culture and Sport Committee's firm commitment to seek the involvement of children and young people in the recruitment of the commissioner and the other factors that I have outlined, I invite Donald Gorrie to withdraw amendment 4.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Kay Ullrich):
SNP
Good afternoon. We have received apologies from Jamie McGrigor. I remind everyone to turn off their mobile phones and pagers—given that I was the guilty part...
Section 1 agreed to.
Schedule 1The Commissioner for Children and Young People in Scotland
The Convener:
SNP
Amendment 8 is grouped with amendment 9.
The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
I want to put on record the fact that, in considering potential Executive amendments to the bill, I have sought to work within the spirit of the bill, as dra...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
The minister said that no guidance would be provided. I can see that it is quite correct that, once the Parliament has passed the bill, neither the Parliamen...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
The Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill is a committee bill, not an Executive bill. It is for this committee to establish during the c...
The Convener:
SNP
I allowed the minister to respond to that because I thought that it might be helpful, but she will also have an opportunity to wind up the debate on this group.
Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab):
Lab
It is obvious that amendments 8 and 9 are aimed at encouraging the commissioner to work with others to minimise duplication and overlap. Neither amendment is...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I will speak in favour of the view that Karen Gillon has expressed.Amendment 8 is ambiguous and imprecise. I would accept amendment 8 if it were a genuine Ma...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
With an olive.
Irene McGugan:
SNP
That is right, but as it is not that kind of amendment, I cannot accept it.On amendment 9, Karen Gillon has comprehensively outlined the view that was taken ...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
I do not detect much of a difference between what Karen Gillon said and what the minister said. Ultimately, we all want to end up in the same place. The argu...
The Convener:
SNP
The minister may wind up.
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
The discussion has been helpful. I welcome the contributions of committee members for putting on record the policy intention, although I do not think that th...
Amendment 8, by agreement, withdrawn.
The Convener:
SNP
Amendment 2 is grouped with amendment 3.
Karen Gillon:
Lab
Amendments 2 and 3 would bring the provisions for the accountable officer into line with certain other acts that have been passed by the Parliament. Paragrap...
Amendment 2 agreed to.
Amendment 3 moved—Karen Gillon—and agreed to.
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Section 2—Appointment
The Convener:
SNP
Amendment 4 is in a group on its own.
Donald Gorrie:
LD
Amendment 4 would instruct the Parliament to"consult and involve children and young people and organisations working with and for children and young people i...
Karen Gillon:
Lab
The Education, Culture and Sport Committee has been keen to involve children in our processes. We have sought to do so in a meaningful rather than tokenistic...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
I have sympathy for what Donald Gorrie is trying to do, but the issue is how we can legislate for good practice. I do not believe that the measure proposed b...
Donald Gorrie:
LD
It is encouraging that so much thought has been given to the difficult process of giving young people a say in the appointment procedure, given that they wil...
Amendment 4, by agreement, withdrawn.
The Convener:
SNP
Amendment 5 is in a group on its own.
Donald Gorrie:
LD
Amendment 5 is a slightly nit-picking amendment that tries to take account of the fact that a future Parliament might be less enthusiastic about the business...