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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 10 June 2021

10 Jun 2021 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Justice System

I am very pleased to open for the Scottish Conservatives in my first justice debate. I took on the education brief just a month before the pandemic hit, and we saw 15 months of unprecedented upheaval in the system. I now take on the justice portfolio 15 months into the same pandemic which, equally, has shifted the floor from beneath the feet of our justice system.

I pay tribute to my predecessor, Liam Kerr, and I wish the new cabinet secretary well—the justice portfolio truly is a tough gig. Those in the chamber who I have worked with in the past will know that, where there is common ground, I will seek to find it, and where there is not, I will debate respectfully and make my case. However, after reading today’s motion and amendments, I am confident that there will be common ground to find on many issues, although perhaps not all.

I do not expect agreement at decision time today, but I want to kick off the debate constructively. I accept that the events of the past year have created unexpected conundrums for us all. We are not alone in seeing the emergence of criminal court backlogs, but Covid only exacerbated an existing problem in Scotland. Nearly 50 per cent of the current trial backlog existed pre-pandemic. We are not alone in having a correlation between the emergency laws that we passed and additional workload for our front-line police, nor are we alone in being forced to innovate to find new ways of allowing justice to proceed. While we were tucked up in our houses, our front-line police, ambulance, fire and prison staff continued their work, nose to nose with danger. We all owe them a huge debt of gratitude.

It is interesting that no one has sought to remove any words from the Government motion for debate, but plenty would be added if amendments are agreed to. Let me make two observations on that. First, the motion focuses narrowly on the effects of the pandemic, with no acceptance of some of the pre-existing problems that we faced. Secondly, it refers to plans to reform Scottish justice and a promise to make it fit for purpose in a modern world, but it does not explain how.

The Scottish Conservatives have proudly stood on a platform for clear reform of the justice system that resets the balance of focus on victims and their views and rights, and we make no apology for that. The Government motion states that the interests of victims should remain at the heart of necessary reforms. I agree with that, but those cannot just be words; we must follow through on that commitment.

Our amendment is a starting point. We will introduce a victims bill, which will contain specific actions that the Government could take right now to shift the balance. The first of the two has been discussed in this place already: Michelle’s law and Suzanne’s law. It is important that we refresh our memories on those. Michelle Stewart was murdered by John Wilson, who had been approved for a temporary release and allowed back into the community after serving just nine years in prison. Michelle’s family was informed of his release by letter and had no say whatsoever in the matter. Her sister talked at the time about

“the prospect of seeing my sister’s killer on the street, on the bus or in the shops”

and said:

“It is unbelievably painful.”

They asked us why that was allowed to happen, but we did not have an answer for them then and I do not think that we have an answer for them today. Michelle’s law will put that injustice right.

Suzanne Pilley was killed by her partner in 2010 and he refused to say where her body lies. Margaret Fleming, Lynda Spence, Arlene Fraser—the list goes on and on. Suzanne’s law would ensure that those who refuse to reveal the location of the bodies of their victims will not be eligible for parole until they do so. Sadly, it is too often the case that the legislative reform that is needed is named after individual victims—women who have often suffered at the hands of evil.

That point was validly raised by Labour’s amendment, which seeks to find a solution to the trauma of how we process domestic abuse and sexual violence cases in our courts. However, I cannot support Labour’s amendment, because we should do that issue justice by holding a proper debate into the findings of Lady Dorrian’s recommendations, of which there are many. I would like to know the implications of those recommendations and we should do that as a Parliament positively and constructively.

These are all very sombre issues to grapple with, but it would send an immediate and powerful nod to victims in Scotland that we as a Parliament are on their side if we make speedy progress on them.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-00294, in the name of Keith Brown, on justice: recover, renew, transform. 14:28
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Keith Brown) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to consider some of the most important challenges that our justice system faces. I want to use the time to build on my rece...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Could the proposed new coronavirus legislation that the Government wants to introduce, and the powers that would then exist, lead to people on remand staying...
Keith Brown SNP
To be honest, I am not sure about the connection that the member makes between the powers in the coronavirus legislation and the extension of remand, but I a...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
We have discussed the issue before, but when we carried out the reform that extended sheriff court sentencing powers to five years, it was always intended th...
Keith Brown SNP
We have discussed the issue previously, and Pauline McNeill will know that officials were on that call. Although I am happy to come back to her with a fuller...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary be addressing policing at any point? I ask because there was a good question at First Minister’s question time today about body-wo...
Keith Brown SNP
I heard and understood the First Minister’s response earlier. We are willing to investigate the matter. I am sure that Liam Kerr is aware that there are a nu...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I am very pleased to open for the Scottish Conservatives in my first justice debate. I took on the education brief just a month before the pandemic hit, and ...
Keith Brown SNP
I am more than willing to engage in that discussion. The member will have heard what I said about a victims commissioner and additional trauma support for vi...
Jamie Greene Con
They are welcome changes, but they do not go far enough or fast enough. We go back to November 2019 when justice secretary at the time, Humza Yousaf, stated ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I thank the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans, and the Minister for Community Safety, Ash Denham, for meeting me yesterday. I hope that we can conti...
Keith Brown SNP
I thank the member for her challenge, but I am sure that she knows that decisions on investigations are for the investigatory authorities. However, in her ow...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I appreciate that. Talking about the prime suspect in the case, investigative journalist Sam Poling said that “All the evidence I’ve seen suggests this man...
Keith Brown SNP
That is what the courts service and the figures say that the date will be. Yesterday, I made the point that it should be down to us all to see whether we can...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I acknowledge that point—let us see what progress we can make. Like Jamie Greene, I want to make a point about the scarcity of legal aid, which has driven m...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Would you bring your remarks to a close, please?
Pauline McNeill Lab
Sorry, Presiding Officer. I was told that I had nine minutes to speak.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You are down for eight.
Pauline McNeill Lab
I will finish on this point. When it comes to decision time, it would be helpful for us to know what the Green amendment means by “institutional violence”, ...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
I express my heartfelt thanks to all those who have been involved in supporting survivors and victims of all forms of violence throughout the pandemic. As r...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I welcome the cabinet secretary, Jamie Greene and Maggie Chapman to their new roles and Pauline McNeill back to her old stomping ground. She will find that m...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I am not defending extraordinary delays, but does the member accept that there sometimes has to be a health and safety inquiry or an aerospace inquiry that w...
Liam McArthur LD
I certainly accept that there are mitigating circumstances in some instances, but that emphasises the importance of keeping the families of victims informed ...
The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
We move to the open debate. Members who wish to participate might want to ensure that they have pressed their request-to-speak buttons. 15:15
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP) SNP
I plan to address two areas in this short speech. First, I commend the Scottish Government’s commitment to creating a register of interests for members of t...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I first wish good luck to everybody who is delivering their maiden speech today. I know how it feels; I was very proud to stand here last week and deliver mi...
Keith Brown SNP
Can I answer the question?
Pam Gosal Con
I will hold on because I am hoping that the cabinet secretary will respond to the questions when he is summing up. I will get on with some of the words I hav...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Before I start my speech, I say that Pam Gosal asked an awful lot of questions in her speech, but was not prepared to listen to answers—which seems to be ver...