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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 12 November 2020

12 Nov 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Pre-release Access to Official Statistics (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Macpherson, Ben SNP Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

Thank you, Presiding Officer.

I thank Mr Wightman for his intervention. On the latter point, I have clearly stated our position, and I appreciate the nuance with which Mr Wightman articulates his point. The committee is examining the question of pre-release access in principle, but it is incumbent on me to emphasise that it is a fact that those bodies also have pre-release access.

It has been argued that giving everybody the same access to official statistics at the same time is a fundamental principle of statistical good practice, as we have just discussed. I do not deny that the Pre-release Access to Official Statistics (Scotland) Order 2008 confers an advantage on ministers, in that ministers and specific officials have time to consider the implications before others, who do not receive pre-release access. However, ministers have a greater responsibility to consider the implications. In its bill proposal, the committee admitted that it has no evidence that Scottish ministers have used their pre-release access to influence statistical publication.

The people of Scotland are currently experiencing unprecedented challenges to their physical and mental health, as well as to their finances and way of life. That makes ministers even more accountable, as there is a justified expectation by the media, the public and other politicians that we will be on top of the issues and will be able to provide informed comment and clear messaging.

In these fast-moving and unpredictable times, the vital importance of good, relevant statistics, trusted professional statisticians and well-informed politicians has been clearly demonstrated. At the point at which data and statistics are published, ministers need to have a good understanding of what are sometimes complex statistical issues. If ministers are not able to have a good understanding at the point of publication, there is a risk of misinterpretation, which could have a significant and damaging impact on public trust.

Evidence and statistics have been at the heart of the Scottish Government’s response to Covid. That includes the First Minister speaking about the numbers each day, which has built public trust in the numbers. That has been possible due to carefully controlled pre-release access to statistics and accurate briefing by the professional statisticians. That is why public trust in the Scottish Government to act in the best interests of the country remains high.

We should follow and respect the advice that is provided to us by the professional statisticians. The existing legislation sets out the rules and principles for pre-release access. A key aspect of that is our position that responsibility for determining the appropriate arrangements for pre-release access in Scotland should lie with the chief statistician.

We are fortunate in Scotland, and in the Government in particular, to have a highly skilled statistical workforce, and the fact that people who have strong skills want to work for the Government is testimony to trust in the process. By putting the arrangements for pre-release access in the hands of those professional statisticians, we trust them to safeguard the integrity of the data and minimise the risk of the misinterpretation or misuse of evidence.

I am proud to say that the Scottish Government plays a leading role in improving how data and statistics are used to deliver real benefits for Scotland and beyond. That is done in a responsible and ethical way that honours the principles of transparency, trustworthiness, and value.

We are in the middle of a devastating pandemic, with a disorganised exit from the EU looming. Parliament needs to focus on what we can do to support Scotland’s people, industries and reputation. As my colleagues highlighted at earlier stages of this process, removing pre-release access from ministers is potentially removing a valuable, managed and well-functioning process. The bill could be considered to be a distraction at a time when any distraction from the main issues at hand is unhelpful, and I urge Parliament to consider that carefully. I look forward to a thoughtful debate this afternoon.

16:21  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23289, in the name of Gordon Lindhurst, on the Pre-release Access to Official Statistics (Scotland) Bill....
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
Why raise the same issue in November 2018, in September 2019 and again today? Why, given the no shortage of other problems in the world, persist with a focus...
The Minister for Public Finance and Migration (Ben Macpherson) SNP
I am pleased to speak in the stage 1 debate on the Pre-release Access to Official Statistics (Scotland) Bill, which is a committee bill. The Government has ...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
The minister has mentioned a series of bodies to which statistics are released in a pre-release form. In a sense, however, that does not get to the nub of th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
There is time in hand, minister, so that intervention does not impact on your speaking time.
Ben Macpherson SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I thank Mr Wightman for his intervention. On the latter point, I have clearly stated our position, and I appreciate the nuance...
Maurice Golden (West Scotland) (Con) Con
In its written evidence to the committee, the Royal Statistical Society’s opinion was that reform “would be warmly welcomed by all those committed to statis...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
The convener started by reading out a list. I will do likewise to make the point that all the experts agree. The minister said that we should follow the advi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate, with speeches of four minutes, please. I have a little time in hand for interventions. 16:32
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful to take part in the debate, as I was involved in the topic as deputy convener of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee at that time, and ...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I will immediately respond to one part of Jackie Baillie’s contribution. There is no “secrecy” about any of the statistics that are part of this debate. The ...
Alexander Burnett (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Con
Official statistics are important in all democracies, enabling us to hold our Governments to account, no matter what party we are in or who is in power. It i...
Richard Lyle (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) SNP
First, I have to say that I regret the personal attacks with which the Opposition came in today on members who are not here and who cannot defend themselves....
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Richard Lyle SNP
No, I will not. The member lost that right when he started personal attacks on people. He will not interrupt. It is better—
Daniel Johnson Lab
On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer. I urge the member to clarify his statement. He has just made the serious allegation that I have besmirched the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
That is not a point of order. Would Mr Lyle like to respond before he moves on?
Richard Lyle SNP
They can give it out but they cannot take it. My comment was not aimed at Daniel Johnson. It is better that ministers are involved in the orderly release of...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
It can be difficult when we are in a hybrid situation, because the system does not allow interventions when people are taking part remotely. Sometimes, that ...
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Ben Macpherson said that the debate is a distraction. I do not think that it is a distraction. It is an important debate because it gets to the heart of the ...
John Mason SNP
I take James Kelly’s point, but how would the PRA affect those figures about poverty in Glasgow?
James Kelly Lab
It is a fair point, which I will address as I go through my speech. I commend the committee for introducing the Pre-release Access to Official Statistics (S...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) SNP
We have heard some away-with-the-fairies speeches this afternoon. It is strange that pre-release access to Government statistics was enjoyed for eight years...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Will the member give way?
Willie Coffey SNP
No, thank you. The chief statistician also said that pre-release access has been working well since the 2008 order, and long before it; that the Scottish Go...
Andy Wightman Green
Will the member give way?
Willie Coffey SNP
No, I have hardly any time left—my apologies. It is part of the day job that ministers do for the whole country. People expect them to get facts and figures...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I am not a member of the committee that has introduced the bill, and I defer to other members who clearly know far more about it than I do. Nevertheless, I a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the closing speeches. 17:04
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I thank the committee, not just because I had the pleasure of taking part in one of its evidence sessions when I was a substitute member, but because the iss...