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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 03 December 2020

03 Dec 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Heat Networks (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Lockhart, Dean Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

It is perhaps fitting that we are having this debate while many parts of Scotland are seeing the first snow of winter.

I was a member of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee when it started gathering evidence on the Heat Networks (Scotland) Bill, but I left the committee before the report was published, although I confirm that there was no connection between those two events. I thank the clerks for all their hard work, not only on the bill but across a wide range of topics over the four years that I was a member of the committee.

As Gordon Lindhurst said, it is a technical bill and my colleague Alexander Burnett demonstrated that, when it comes to the technical details of the bill, he knows his onions. As he said, the bill covers a wide range of policy areas, including fuel poverty, climate change and delegated powers to local authorities. It is those areas that I will briefly touch on today.

The minister gave his commitment that fuel poverty was an “absolute priority” in the development of the bill. However, the evidence of Citizens Advice Scotland was compelling about the limitations of the bill when it comes to addressing fuel poverty. CAS said that the bill

“cannot guarantee lower fuel costs for heat network consumers as it does not have competency over pricing.”

It also said that

“the Bill cannot oblige heat networks to publish their tariffs so that consumers can compare what they are paying in the same way gas and electricity consumers can”

at the moment. It said that

“while heat networks are ... able to provide lower cost heating, ... consumers will not be guaranteed that”

that lower cost will be passed on for their benefit.

To be fair, not all those powers are in the minister’s gift. In his response to the stage 1 report, and in his opening remarks today, he undertook to consider what changes could be made at stage 2 to make the bill more explicit with regard to how heat networks will contribute to reducing fuel poverty. That is all very welcome.

As other members have said, addressing the fuel poverty issue will be an important part of developing the bill and ensuring that it has effective outcomes. Therefore, I encourage the minister to carefully consider the evidence that was given by Citizens Advice Scotland on that matter.

Outside of the bill, I know that the minister is working on other policy measures to address fuel poverty. However, it is now more than three years since we heard an announcement about the publicly owned energy company, which was announced as the primary answer in addressing fuel poverty in Scotland. Again, I know that the minister has been working hard to turn that announcement into a feasible working plan; perhaps in his closing remarks he will provide an update on when in the near future we might see the publicly owned energy company. For the record, and to continue the collegiate nature of the debate, I do not hold the minister himself wholly responsible for the delays in that policy, because I suspect that its announcement was cobbled together by a special adviser in order to grab headlines for the announcement of the programme for government. Perhaps the minister will confirm whether that was the case.

The second area of concern that I want to highlight is the support that local authorities will require in order to implement the legislation. Paragraph 181 of the report rightly states that

“The importance of the role of local authorities ... should not be underestimated”

in delivering targets.

The minister told the committee that he wants to “strike the right balance” between local authorities having the necessary powers and the Government giving them the necessary resources. A significant number of respondents gave feedback in the consultation to suggest that local authorities lacked the necessary resources and the necessary expertise to deliver the proposed targets that were set out for heat networks. In their written evidence to the committee, Glasgow City Council and Highland Council warned that

“Care must be taken not to overload local authorities”

in delivering targets. I will conclude on that point. Local authorities have done a tremendous job in responding to the Covid crisis and I think that we would all encourage the minister to make sure that they have all the necessary additional support, resources and expertise that are required to implement the proposals.

I am happy to support the bill’s general principles at stage 1.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23564, in the name of Paul Wheelhouse, on stage 1 of the Heat Networks (Scotland) Bill. 15:55
The Minister for Energy, Connectivity and the Islands (Paul Wheelhouse) SNP
I am delighted to open the debate on the bill and that we have reached this point in the process. I thank the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee for its...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Does the minister think that Ofgem would be the appropriate body?
Paul Wheelhouse SNP
We are very supportive of Ofgem providing the role. Obviously, it is not within our gift to appoint a body that is constituted under a UK statute. We are see...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
Heat networks are hardly a new idea. The first modern district heating system was pioneered in a town in the state of New York in 1877. Birdsill Holly, a fri...
Alexander Burnett (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Con
It is welcome to finally be here deliberating legislation to advance heat networks in Scotland, although I feel that it has been a long time coming; so long,...
Paul Wheelhouse SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Alexander Burnett Con
If I can have the time back, certainly.
Paul Wheelhouse SNP
The member rightly identifies that we need an accurate understanding of what the heat load and the demand load would be, building by building. Does he apprec...
Alexander Burnett Con
I welcome that reply. I also note for the record that I welcome the minister’s offer in previous conversations to be as constructive as possible on the bill....
Claudia Beamish (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I thank Paul Wheelhouse for introducing the Heat Networks (Scotland) Bill. I welcome the bill as an opportunity to address concerns around the sector and as ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
I call Andy Wightman to open the debate on behalf of the Scottish Greens. You have up to five minutes, Mr Wightman. 16:28
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
Scottish Greens welcome the bill. I thank the committee’s clerks and all those who gave evidence. As the convener did in his opening remarks, I thank the min...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I hope that the Deputy Presiding Officer might grant Andy Wightman a closing remark, so that he can explain why he was on special manoeuvres, skiing in Siber...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We come to the open debate. 16:37
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
We face a number of challenges around heat. They include the need to decarbonise heat and the fuel poverty that many of our constituents face. Heat networks,...
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I refer members to my entry in the register of interests. It is interesting to take part in the debate as somebody who has not been involved in the committe...
Paul Wheelhouse SNP
I am grateful to the member for giving way; I will not take much of his time. I very much agree with him about the need for pace. I do not disagree with that...
Edward Mountain Con
I thank the minister for that, and I agree. Whoever is slowing it down and wherever the slowness is, I will criticise those people, because it is a great sch...
Richard Lyle (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) SNP
As ever, I begin by welcoming the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. Scotland and, by extension, this Scottish Government have a proud reco...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I have a little time in hand, so I am giving quizzical looks if members go over their four minutes. I am not upset. 16:51
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Thank you for that reassurance, Presiding Officer. I speak on behalf of all members when I say that we do not like upsetting you at all. Members: Hear, hear.
Daniel Johnson Lab
I echo Edward Mountain’s comment. As a non-committee member, one can feel a little like an interloper, especially on a subject such as this. I would say, how...
Andy Wightman Green
I am very glad that Daniel Johnson mentioned that. Does he agree that what we are seeing in countries such as Denmark is an example of municipal enterprise, ...
Daniel Johnson Lab
By the means of our collective endeavour, we achieve more than we do alone. I do not care much if we want to call that municipal socialism or co-operative en...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) SNP
I think that Daniel Johnson has just condemned Gordon Lindhurst to banishment by describing him as a municipal socialist—but there we go. I welcome the chan...
Dean Lockhart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It is perhaps fitting that we are having this debate while many parts of Scotland are seeing the first snow of winter. I was a member of the Economy, Energy...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Colin Beattie, to be followed by Bob Doris. Interruption. I think that you are on mute, Mr Beattie. While we are waiting for things to be sorted at th...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
It is just as well that I was paying attention, Presiding Officer. I am pleased to speak in the debate and to highlight the very real opportunities to boost...
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) SNP
Tackling our need to decarbonise heating systems must be a major priority for us all. To date, we have been fairly successful in decarbonising our electricit...