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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 11 March 2021

11 Mar 2021 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill
Mackay, Rona SNP Strathkelvin and Bearsden Watch on SPTV

I will come to that in my speech, if Johann Lamont lets me proceed.

Who could argue with protecting minority groups? The bill consolidates and modernises existing hate crime legislation following the hate crime review that was undertaken by Lord Bracadale, for which there was cross-party support in June 2018.

The attention that has been given to the bill has brought home the importance of freedom of expression and why it must be protected. I fully understand the concerns in that regard. However, the freedom of expression amendments that were agreed to yesterday—particularly amendment 1, in the name of Adam Tomkins—should reassure people that the bill does not stifle discussion, opinion or challenging views. We witnessed that in the very passionate debate that was held in the chamber last night.

I thank Adam Tomkins for lodging amendment 1 and for the consensual way in which, as convener, he steered the committee through the bill. I also echo his comments from yesterday about the intensive scrutiny that that issue in the bill, and the bill in general, has been under. I am just sorry that the Tories have said that they will not support it tonight.

I also thank the cabinet secretary for his willingness to engage at every level of the bill—[Interruption.] I am sorry, but I do not have time to take an intervention. The cabinet secretary engaged not only with the committee but with an extensive range of stakeholders in order to take their advice and listen to their views.

It is crucial to remember that there is a reasonable person defence and a very high bar before conduct is criminalised. All alleged offences have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt in court. Some people will say that the amendments that were agreed to yesterday go too far, and some will say that they do not go far enough. This is a very subjective issue.

We know that hate crimes are on the rise. They threaten community cohesion and are an extremely distressing and pernicious form of criminality, ruining and endangering lives with their cruelty. The fact that minority ethnic groups experience two thirds of all race-related hate crime shows that we have much more to do to overcome prejudice. The cabinet secretary was persuaded that it was not necessary or appropriate to include race in the freedom of expression provision because, among other unintended consequences, that would leave Scotland with less protection than the rest of the UK. I fully support that decision.

There is a clear need to tackle misogyny and gender-based prejudice in Scotland. I have a lot of sympathy for Johann Lamont’s amendments, and I admire the passionate manner in which she has articulated them and in which she has fought for women’s rights over many years. However, I disagree with her for all the reasons that were outlined by my colleague Annabelle Ewing yesterday. Systemic misogyny needs more than a sex aggravator. All the measures to tackle misogyny in the past have not worked. The fact that the Government has set up the misogyny and criminal justice in Scotland working group, which is to be led by Helena Kennedy, is testament to the overriding importance that we put on tackling the issue. It is time to tackle misogyny once and for all.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
I will go straight on. There is no time in hand; time is tight. I know that members will understand why. The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Hate Crime and Public ...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I wonder what the cabinet secretary has to say about the fact that, in debating the hate crime bill, I am now being accused of hate crime and could expect to...
Humza Yousaf SNP
Ms Smith will not have the police at her door for anything that she has said on the hate crime bill. I am sorry to hear that she has been the victim of hate....
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I will give you an extra minute for taking an intervention.
Humza Yousaf SNP
Thank you. It is so important to recognise the safeguards in the bill; they are really strong safeguards. A necessary element of the new stirring up of hatr...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you very much. I am sorry, but I must be very strict with time, because we must go to portfolio questions at half past 2. 13:42
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
All noted, Presiding Officer. Today marks the end of a long and tortuous passage for a bill that was introduced almost a year ago. An unprecedented 2,000-pl...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr Con
I really cannot, Mr Findlay—I am sorry. Will James Kelly really vote for a bill that Free to Disagree points out has considerable parallels to the Offensive...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I recognise the work of the Parliament’s Justice Committee, and in particular its convener Adam Tomkins and those members who participated in consideration o...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I start by again commending Parliament for the rigorous and passionate way in which it conducted its scrutiny of the bill at stage 3 last night. It was, as s...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
I thank everyone who has got us to this point: Lord Bracadale; the cabinet secretary and his team; the convener of the Justice Committee, Adam Tomkins, whose...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate with speeches of four minutes. 14:01
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
We have reached the final stage of a bill that has generated more attention from the public and in the media than any other piece of legislation during my ti...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Is it a regret to Rona Mackay that, at 5 pm this evening, no signal will be sent out about the hate crime that women face day and daily?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am afraid that I cannot give you extra time, Ms Mackay. You will have to absorb that in your four minutes—please continue.
Rona Mackay SNP
I will come to that in my speech, if Johann Lamont lets me proceed. Who could argue with protecting minority groups? The bill consolidates and modernises ex...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am afraid that you must conclude.
Rona Mackay SNP
I firmly believe that we should let that group do that important work and come to its conclusions.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am sorry, but you must stop. I take no pleasure in saying that, but the timetable has been set by the Parliamentary Bureau, and I must keep to it. Please a...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
One of the most disappointing aspects of the debate about the bill is that the fact that there is much in it with which everyone can agree often gets lost. W...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Johann Lamont, to be followed by Shona Robison. Ms Robison will be the last speaker in the open debate. 14:10
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I will bow to your discipline, although I am not convinced that my speech will be as disciplined as it should be. If ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you. I know that members will understand why I extended the time for Ms Lamont, but for the rest of you—no. We move to closing speeches. 14:17
Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) SNP
I, for one, will support Johann Lamont’s position and I certainly support her right not to vote for the bill for the good reasons that she set out. I would s...
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
As Neil Bibby and Liam McArthur have said, hate crime is, unfortunately, on the rise in Scotland. From that point of view, robust laws to tackle it are welco...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I thank Liam McArthur, John Finnie and Rona Mackay for their kind and generous remarks. The Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill is a much-changed pi...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I thank members from across the chamber for their thoughtful speeches. I again thank the Justice Committee and its clerks, the Scottish Government team and o...
Johann Lamont Lab
Will the member give way?