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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 11 March 2021

11 Mar 2021 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill

I start by again commending Parliament for the rigorous and passionate way in which it conducted its scrutiny of the bill at stage 3 last night. It was, as some said, the Parliament at its best.

At times, it was clear that colleagues found some of what was said uncomfortable, unsettling and, on occasion, deeply offensive. As we know, that is in the nature of the debate that we were having, but I do not believe that it could credibly be argued that any of what was said in relation to any of the amendments that we considered last night was either hateful or constituted hate speech.

It is invidious to pick out individuals, but I pay tribute to Johann Lamont for the force and conviction with which she argued her case. Regardless of whether members agree with her, hers is a voice that commands respect, which underlines what will be lost with her departure.

The same is true of Adam Tomkins, whose articulation of the arguments around freedom of expression was one of the best speeches that I have heard in this chamber. Indeed, it was enough for me to forgive him the intellectual contortion that enabled him to declare Johann Lamont’s and Joan McAlpine’s amendments unnecessary before promptly voting for them.

Last summer, the Scottish Liberal Democrats could not support the bill, but that was not because we believed that modernising and consolidating our hate crime laws was unnecessary. One has only to look at the rise in hate crime across all characteristics to see the need to give our police, prosecutors and courts the tools that they require. We shared the concerns of many, including faith groups, academics, the police, the Law Society of Scotland, actors, journalists and others about the drafting of the bill. A mix of vague language and expanded criminality saw the justice secretary being accused of his own stirring up offence.

To his credit, Mr Yousaf heeded the calls from myself and others to base the stirring up offences on intent only. He also sensibly agreed to a reasonableness test. Even so, concerns remained about the balance being struck between protecting those at risk of hate speech and safeguarding our fundamental right to freedom of expression.

As our convener was fond of reminding us, rights such as freedom of speech and privacy should be interpreted and applied generously, and restrictions legislated for narrowly and only when necessary in the public interest. Those rights and freedoms are not unfettered, of course, but as the oft-quoted Lord Justice Sedley reminds us:

“Freedom only to speak inoffensively is not worth having.”

It is not easy to strike an appropriate balance. Some will argue that it has not been achieved with the bill, but I disagree. We now have broad and consistent freedom of expression protections across all the new characteristics, with the exception of religion, where faith groups, the Humanist Society Scotland and others were unanimous in calling for more specific protections.

I recognise the rationale for making a distinction between the approach that we take to debate around ideas and beliefs on the one hand, and an individual’s innate identity on the other. Let us be clear, however, that no one—absolutely no one—should be required to hold any particular belief or express views to suggest that they do. However, nor should they be permitted to act in ways that, to any reasonable person, would be considered threatening or abusive and with the intention of stirring up hatred. I therefore welcome the combined change introduced courtesy of the cabinet secretary’s amendment and Adam Tomkins’s specific reference to the European convention on human rights. Together, they broaden and deepen the protections afforded.

Before closing, I want to reflect briefly on the non-inclusion of a sex aggravator in this bill. Looking back at my remarks at stage 1, I am reminded that I found myself largely in agreement with Johann Lamont. It seemed anomalous to leave out the characteristic of sex, especially given Lord Bracadale’s recommendation and the risk of laws being passed later without proper parliamentary scrutiny. I confess that those concerns have not wholly disappeared. Ultimately, though, I was persuaded by the evidence that the committee heard from Scottish Women’s Aid, Rape Crisis Scotland, Engender and Zero Tolerance that the issue would benefit from the expertise of Dame Helena Kennedy’s working group. Time will tell whether that is the right approach.

All the evidence is that societies and economies are stronger when every person can contribute, and that means stopping the discrimination that rules many people out of living their lives to the full. There should be equal opportunity for everyone, no matter what we look like, who we are or where we come from. On that basis, Scottish Liberal Democrats will support the bill at decision time.

13:57  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
I will go straight on. There is no time in hand; time is tight. I know that members will understand why. The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Hate Crime and Public ...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I wonder what the cabinet secretary has to say about the fact that, in debating the hate crime bill, I am now being accused of hate crime and could expect to...
Humza Yousaf SNP
Ms Smith will not have the police at her door for anything that she has said on the hate crime bill. I am sorry to hear that she has been the victim of hate....
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I will give you an extra minute for taking an intervention.
Humza Yousaf SNP
Thank you. It is so important to recognise the safeguards in the bill; they are really strong safeguards. A necessary element of the new stirring up of hatr...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you very much. I am sorry, but I must be very strict with time, because we must go to portfolio questions at half past 2. 13:42
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
All noted, Presiding Officer. Today marks the end of a long and tortuous passage for a bill that was introduced almost a year ago. An unprecedented 2,000-pl...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr Con
I really cannot, Mr Findlay—I am sorry. Will James Kelly really vote for a bill that Free to Disagree points out has considerable parallels to the Offensive...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I recognise the work of the Parliament’s Justice Committee, and in particular its convener Adam Tomkins and those members who participated in consideration o...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I start by again commending Parliament for the rigorous and passionate way in which it conducted its scrutiny of the bill at stage 3 last night. It was, as s...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
I thank everyone who has got us to this point: Lord Bracadale; the cabinet secretary and his team; the convener of the Justice Committee, Adam Tomkins, whose...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate with speeches of four minutes. 14:01
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
We have reached the final stage of a bill that has generated more attention from the public and in the media than any other piece of legislation during my ti...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Is it a regret to Rona Mackay that, at 5 pm this evening, no signal will be sent out about the hate crime that women face day and daily?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am afraid that I cannot give you extra time, Ms Mackay. You will have to absorb that in your four minutes—please continue.
Rona Mackay SNP
I will come to that in my speech, if Johann Lamont lets me proceed. Who could argue with protecting minority groups? The bill consolidates and modernises ex...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am afraid that you must conclude.
Rona Mackay SNP
I firmly believe that we should let that group do that important work and come to its conclusions.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am sorry, but you must stop. I take no pleasure in saying that, but the timetable has been set by the Parliamentary Bureau, and I must keep to it. Please a...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
One of the most disappointing aspects of the debate about the bill is that the fact that there is much in it with which everyone can agree often gets lost. W...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Johann Lamont, to be followed by Shona Robison. Ms Robison will be the last speaker in the open debate. 14:10
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I will bow to your discipline, although I am not convinced that my speech will be as disciplined as it should be. If ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you. I know that members will understand why I extended the time for Ms Lamont, but for the rest of you—no. We move to closing speeches. 14:17
Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) SNP
I, for one, will support Johann Lamont’s position and I certainly support her right not to vote for the bill for the good reasons that she set out. I would s...
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
As Neil Bibby and Liam McArthur have said, hate crime is, unfortunately, on the rise in Scotland. From that point of view, robust laws to tackle it are welco...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I thank Liam McArthur, John Finnie and Rona Mackay for their kind and generous remarks. The Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill is a much-changed pi...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I thank members from across the chamber for their thoughtful speeches. I again thank the Justice Committee and its clerks, the Scottish Government team and o...
Johann Lamont Lab
Will the member give way?