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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 17 December 2020

17 Dec 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

The stark and sad reality is that there is little that we can do to fully compensate victims of abuse in care. Words, pounds, letters and payments are the physical manifestations of compensation schemes such as this. They are tokens of apology. They are an acceptance of our modern-day endeavours to right the wrongs of the past. However, no apology will ever right the wrongdoings of others, no legislation will bury memories of horrific abuse and no compensation scheme will replace traumatic memories of unhappy childhoods with happy ones.

Yet we have to start somewhere. That somewhere started in December 2004, when the then First Minister, Jack McConnell, told the Parliament:

“Now that we know what has happened, it falls to us, as representatives of the Scottish people, to acknowledge it.”—[Official Report, 1 December 2004; c 12389.]

Today, we do our bit here, by acknowledging that a redress scheme such as this has been a long time coming. It is an acceptance by the Government of the day that Governments of old failed thousands of young children in state care. The weight of that responsibility lies heavily on our shoulders—on the shoulders of the committee and of the cabinet secretary, who will guide the bill to completion before the Parliament dissolves.

At the end of that journey, it must be a bill that we are proud of. The journey will not be easy, because, as those who sit on the committee have learned, the subject is one of great sensitivity and debate, with uncomfortable substance. Despite our nuanced and differing approaches to the bill, I am pleased that we came to consensus. I record my thanks to my colleagues on the committee, the convener, her adviser and the clerks for putting together the report.

Today we debate the key recommendations, which are based on the evidence that we took. Our biggest thanks must go to those who took the time to enable us to come to those conclusions: the survivors who spoke frankly and honestly with us. I cannot even begin to imagine what some of them have lived through. It still lives with them. As one survivor put it,

“Abuse never leaves a person. It is like a human shadow”.—[Official Report, Education and Skills Committee, 28 October 2020; c 29.]

The debate is for them. The bill is technical, with technical problems that will require technical solutions, but at its heart lie brave people.

I turn to those technical issues now, because although the committee endorses the general principles of the bill, it also raised a number of difficult issues that the Government must contend with. I welcome that the cabinet secretary has already indicated that he will give way on some of those issues. I hope that that is a sign of things to come. We acknowledge in the report, right from the outset, that the scheme will not cater for or work for everyone. It is intended to offer an alternative to civil court proceedings and an easier route to redress. However, that alternative must be fair and affordable. The scheme has limitations, and we must be honest with people about what they are.

There are also flaws and assumptions that we think require revisiting. The first of those is the waiver, which is the biggest of those hurdles and the most contentious area of the bill. There remain large differences between its intended purpose and the reality of what its presence in the scheme would mean. Absolutely nobody had anything positive to say about the waiver, which should serve as a warning to us as we go through the bill process. In the committee, I said from the beginning that I would like to give the Government the benefit of the doubt on the issue, but I will be honest and say that I do not think that evidence in favour of a waiver has been strongly given—a conclusion that I came to reluctantly.

We also talked about what is fair and meaningful, and the words themselves provide a clue here; the bill must be fair and meaningful. The concerns about the waiver, for example, would potentially discourage some survivors from applying because it could prevent them from opting in to civil litigation in future. Many have expressed discomfort and have said that they might feel compelled to sign the waiver because of their current financial hardship.

Such victims need to be fully aware of the implications of their decision, and that leads on to what is fair and meaningful. The point of the waiver is apparently to encourage participation, but we heard openly and directly from organisations that are potential contributors that they would not recommend to the trustees of their respective charities participation in the scheme as proposed. That is not because they do not want to participate but because they feel that the open-ended nature of participation and the large sums of money being asked of them would entirely jeopardise their abilities as current, on-going concerns. Nobody wants that—not least the survivors.

That, plus the absence of ensured participation, means that it is likely that organisations will need to meet the commitments in the scheme through their own funds—their working capital. That will provide a disincentive to participate. I think that the organisations want to do the right thing; the ones that I have spoken to absolutely do. They feel the moral obligation that we know exists. However, those contributions must be fair, and not least, fair to the users of existing services, which is why the concept of sustainability that the committee talked about is so important and must be taken into account.

I must also touch on the difficult issue of money, which is not an easy subject when we talk about abuse, but we must give clarity on it. The Government has already said that it will cover compensation up to £10,000 per application, which covers the lowest level with the lowest evidential threshold, but that could result in public funds having an open-ended liability and covering massive proportions of the payments, even with contributions.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23707, in the name of John Swinney, on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotla...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
I am pleased to open this debate on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill. The bill is a significant milestone in delive...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I hope that I do not pre-empt Mr Johnson’s question, but does the cabinet secretary accept that, without a cap, the stark reality is that many contributing o...
John Swinney SNP
Mr Greene makes a fair point, but we have to make judgments about the way in which we are able to address survivors’ legitimate aspiration for there to be a ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way. Will he comment on the concept of sustainability being included in the bill, as is highlighted in the ...
John Swinney SNP
That is a reasonable point for us to consider, because there is a fine balance to be struck. Although there is a need for organisations to be held accountabl...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Clare Adamson to open the debate on behalf of the Education and Skills Committee. 15:06
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
As convener of the Education and Skills Committee, I welcome the opportunity to highlight its views on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in C...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
If you have more to say, just say it. We have time.
Clare Adamson SNP
Okay, thank you. That is slightly unusual for you, Presiding Officer.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Excuse me! I might get piqued by that and change my mind. No, I am too big a person to do that.
Clare Adamson SNP
I am grateful, Presiding Officer, especially as it is a very important bill and we want to give due consideration to the other areas. However, I will conclud...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, convener. I call Jamie Greene to open for the Conservatives. 15:16
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I look forward to your generosity in equal measure to members on these benches.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We do not want to set a trend.
Jamie Greene Con
The stark and sad reality is that there is little that we can do to fully compensate victims of abuse in care. Words, pounds, letters and payments are the ph...
John Swinney SNP
I am grateful to Mr Greene for giving way. He has just made the point that contributions are necessary to limit the impact on the public purse. That is one o...
Jamie Greene Con
I understand and accept that relationship. We all want maximum participation in the scheme for the benefit of everyone: contributing organisations, the taxpa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
There is some time in hand. Members may expand a little in this sensitive and important debate. 15:26
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Today has been a long time coming: too long in many ways. It is the latest, and perhaps last, link in a chain of recognition, regret and now, hopefully, redr...
John Swinney SNP
I understand the argument that Mr Gray is marshalling. However, the waiver point is critical, because it hinges on the question of how we enable contribution...
Iain Gray Lab
I take the point and I appreciate that that is the Deputy First Minister’s intention. However, all the evidence that we heard from providers and, indeed, fro...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
The introduction and the passage of the bill were always going to be a painful experience for many survivors. I pay tribute to the survivor groups and indivi...
Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I, too, am pleased to be speaking in the stage 1 debate on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill; the bill has been desc...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
Before we move to the open debate, I remind members that, if they are taking part in the debate, they should be in for all the opening speeches and that, eve...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
As we know—and to our collective shame—over several generations, many Scottish children who were placed in the care of organisations or boarded out by the st...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
I am pleased to follow a number of thoughtful speeches. I start by making it clear that, for victims and survivors, no amount of money nor any apology can t...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
The Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill has been shaped and is owned by the many people who suffered abuse by people who w...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I thank the Scottish Government and the Education and Skills Committee for their work on the bill, and I thank all the survivors who helped to shape it. The...
Alex Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) SNP
I very much welcome the bill. As other members have said—in particular, people such as Jackie Baillie, who, like me, have been in the Parliament since day 1—...