Committee
Public Audit and Post-legislative Scrutiny Committee 18 March 2021
18 Mar 2021 · S5 · Public Audit and Post-legislative Scrutiny Committee
Item of business
Covid-19 (Tracking the Implications for Scotland’s Public Finances)
Liz Ditchburn
Watch on SPTV
I will come to all the points that Mr Simpson raised but, by way of context, it is important to say that there are a lot things that we do in investing in the private sector and I think of those in three categories. The first category is the proactive investment for growth that we make, whether that is through the new Scottish National Investment Bank, Scottish Enterprise and the other agencies or schemes such as the Scottish growth scheme. That is where the bulk of the money goes. That is us saying, as a country, that we want to invest in companies that can do good things for Scotland and where we see a role for us. The way in which those schemes operate—the objectives, principles and means by which they make choices—is all laid out in detail. The new bank has a set of missions, which is a new approach: mission-driven investment. That is category 1 and it is a lot of what we do; it is certainly the majority. Category 2 is a much more reactive set of support, which is for companies in crisis. Because of Covid, this conversation is very different from the one that we would have had even just over a year ago. We have obviously had to put very significant funds into companies this year to support cash flow. That is lifeline support the likes of which we have never seen before. We have provided much of that in grant form but, in addition, the UK Government has had some significant loan schemes that companies in Scotland have been able to access. However, there are potentially further challenges ahead for many companies. That second category—reactive support that we have had to provide in this emergency situation—also draws from a series of principles. An example that I will say a little bit more about is the pivotal enterprise resilience fund, which had a very clear set of principles and was starting to help us to make choices about which companies we see as key and where we needed to do something specific. That is an important part of the overall picture. As you say, there are then the high-profile, one-off cases, which are often policy driven. They do not form a blanket category of businesses that we choose to invest in. Instead, we intervene in response to particular situations. For example, in the case of Ferguson Marine, the contractor had failed but island communities still needed the lifeline services. At that point, the Government made a choice about the right way to get the ferries completed, save the jobs and give the yard a future if possible. That was very much driven by a contractor failure; we had to respond to that failure and work out what to do. A range of options were appraised, which eventually took the Government to a final decision to take Ferguson Marine into public ownership. The BiFab case was different. It was about how the overall market for renewables and the supply chain could continue to operate in Scotland, and a deal was done to support the involvement of a new investor. Sadly, as everyone knows, that has not worked out as was hoped, and an administration process is going on. The sale of Prestwick airport was driven by different things again. It is a strategic asset for the whole of Scotland and there was a strategy to take it into public ownership with a clear intention to return it to the private sector. Those cases were all different and they were driven by different things. They do not form a category of cases where people decided to do things for a blanket set of reasons to do with private investment. Those one-off cases are driven by extensive internal and external advice. Audit Scotland has been able to look at all those transactions in detail, both at the time when they happened and subsequently, and everything that we do is underpinned by the requirements of the Scottish public finance manual. We have been in conversations with Audit Scotland and the committee for some time about how we can crystallise all that into a single framework. I will give you an update on that. We have always believed—and we still believe—that the Scottish public finance manual underpins everything and, over the past couple of years, a lot more detailed guidance has been put into it to help people who make decisions, particularly on loans, equities and guarantees. The principles work that we have done in the context of Covid has added another dimension to the ways in which we can think about the choices that Governments need to make. As I hope Audit Scotland would recognise, we are continually in dialogue with it on the matter, and we are learning, drawing from experience and continuing to improve. We have a set of principles that we will integrate into the SPFM, which will help to guide the decisions that Governments need to take. I can say a bit more about the principles if you like, or maybe I should pause there and check whether you want to go back to anything that I have said.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Lab
Under agenda item 3, the committee will take evidence on tracking the implications of the Covid-19 pandemic for Scotland’s public finances. I welcome our wit...
Colin Beattie
SNP
I have one or two questions about contingency planning. I hope that we will be coming out of the Covid-19 pandemic in the near future. Managing our way out o...
The Convener
Lab
Can Liz Ditchburn answer that question or tell us who is best placed to answer it?
Liz Ditchburn (Scottish Government)
Yes. The question is very much about money, so it would be good to hear from Andrew Watson on how we are building in medium-term financial planning in order ...
Andrew Watson (Scottish Government)
I am happy to start on that question. I think that it relates to the current financial year but, as Liz Ditchburn said, we are very much looking ahead to the...
Colin Beattie
SNP
It does to an extent, but I am still a little unclear as to what the actual financial contingency planning process is. You mentioned one or two areas, but wh...
Andrew Watson
I am happy to start on that, but I might bring in my colleagues. Richard McCallum might want to comment on how the health service is preparing for some of th...
Richard McCallum (Scottish Government)
From a health portfolio perspective, we are looking at the issue through three lenses. First, there is the underlying position that health boards and integr...
Colin Beattie
SNP
Have you broken down the financial risk and so forth for each major component area in the budget?
Richard McCallum
We have done that for health. We have looked at areas such as social care, the vaccination programme, test and protect, the NHS and the recovery that will be...
Andrew Watson
We have a detailed process of monthly forecasting across Scottish Government budgets. Clearly, the emerging impacts of Covid will be part of that. To give so...
Liz Ditchburn
I was thinking that, in the way that Richard McCallum talked about health, I would offer the example of how we think about the issue with respect to the econ...
Colin Beattie
SNP
Do you take into consideration the impact of different funding and spending scenarios on the national performance framework outcomes?
Liz Ditchburn
Absolutely—that is one of the things that is always being tracked. Andrew Watson might want to give more detail about how that falls into longer-term budgeti...
Andrew Watson
I was going to make a similar point to the one that Liz Ditchburn made about the emerging evidence of the unequal impact of Covid on society and the outcomes...
Colin Beattie
SNP
Thank you. Back to you, convener.
The Convener
Lab
Alex Neil, please. Oh—he is not there. Graham Simpson, please.
Graham Simpson
Con
Right, I will step into Alex’s shoes. I will move in a slightly different direction and ask about the framework for investment in private companies. As you w...
Liz Ditchburn
I will come to all the points that Mr Simpson raised but, by way of context, it is important to say that there are a lot things that we do in investing in th...
Graham Simpson
Con
My question was, “Do you have a set of principles?” I think that you are saying that the answer is yes, but we have not seen them. Are they going to be publi...
Liz Ditchburn
They will be integrated into the SPFM. We are finalising the process of developing them, but I can talk to you in broad-brush terms about what they are. I do...
The Convener
Lab
Graham, does that answer your question?
Graham Simpson
Con
I guess so. I suppose that it is encouraging that that is being worked on, so I will wait to see the final details. My final question is related to that. Hav...
Liz Ditchburn
Over the course of the pandemic, we have been doing work with Scottish Enterprise, which also informed some of the work on the pivotal enterprise resilience ...
Bill Bowman
Con
I want to move on to the subject of whole public sector accounts. I hope that somebody is familiar with that and can give us an answer. At the end of session...
Jackie McAllister (Scottish Government)
I will take that question. The permanent secretary wrote to the committee on 19 February to reiterate our commitment to whole public sector accounts—we are s...
Bill Bowman
Con
I thank you for that. However, the situation has been going on since 2015. I appreciate that, if someone is a chief financial officer and someone else comes ...
Jackie McAllister
Clearly, an important factor is that the information is timely. We would need to look at the value of producing information for years that are quite some dis...
Bill Bowman
Con
That does not give me much comfort, to be honest, but I do not put that down to you. The Auditor General has also made the point that, given that the Covid ...
Jackie McAllister
Thank you for that comment. I will definitely pick that up with Audit Scotland and explore it further. Although it would be helpful if the whole public sect...