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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 11 March 2021

11 Mar 2021 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

In summing up the debate, we can all start from the position that was well outlined by the cabinet secretary, Jamie Greene, Iain Gray, Johann Lamont and others, which is that the bill is motivated and driven by a profound sense of the need for justice, and by an extreme emotional connection to the very real harm and abuse that was done to so many people.

I will broadly repeat remarks that I made when I spoke in the stage 1 debate. We are dealing with a situation in which there were children who needed care and families who needed help. The state had to step in, but rather than delivering that help and care, the state delivered children into the hands of abusers who tortured them. In many cases, those children were delivered into the hands of the state by parents who did so willingly because they felt that the state could do a better job than they could, which only makes that horrific set of circumstances worse.

The state let them down, so we, as a Parliament, have a duty to provide some form of justice—albeit that it can never be a truly adequate form—for the people who suffered in that horrific way. The bill is undoubtedly an important step towards that. I associate myself with the cabinet secretary’s remarks and with the aim, which is largely being delivered by the bill, of providing people with a straightforward and flexible route to gaining the justice that they would not otherwise have. For many people, that justice would otherwise be unobtainable.

That is not to say that the bill is perfect. A number of issues have continued, but it has undoubtedly been improved by the work of the Parliament. I note the remarks of many members, including Iain Gray and Ross Greer.

However, I am not entirely convinced that the waiver will achieve what it sets out to achieve. In previous stages of the bill, we debated whether it will provide the financial certainty and assurances that might be required because of how insurance works for many organisations.

I also believe that the caveats in the reporting mechanisms that have been added improve the bill. The clarity that is provided for applicants and the requirements to inform applicants of the nature of what they are undertaking make the bill better. Ultimately, improved oversight and accountability, in relation to separation of the chief executive and the chair, and the survivors’ forum being put on a statutory footing, undoubtedly improve the bill.

However, we cannot treat this as finished business. We must continue to listen to survivors and respond to their needs as and when they identify them, and we must recognise that there is limited scope for the bill; it merely deals with the state. There are many situations in which other institutions encouraged or coerced children into care, then abuse was done. Those situations are not covered.

Likewise, there are situations in which parents voluntarily offered their children to institutions, such as mental institutions, when today those children would be considered as simply having additional support needs, and they suffered for years. I speak—I wish that I could go into more detail—informed by the experiences of a close family member. That is an injustice that the bill cannot address, but I hope that future Parliaments will.

Ultimately, this has been a case of Parliament doing its job as it should. There has been robust scrutiny, the Government has responded and we have done our job well. However, I question whether that will always be the case. We are about to have a new Parliament; elections will bring a new composition to the chamber and we must question whether Parliament is well enough structured to provide the robust scrutiny that is needed to make better legislation.

I realise that I am slightly over my time, but I must acknowledge the contributions of my colleagues Iain Gray and Johann Lamont, both of whom spoke very well for themselves, and both of whom I have known for a long time. I came to know them as a young Labour activist. Iain Gray was my MSP when I was the youth and student officer for Edinburgh Pentlands constituency Labour party, and I got to know Johann Lamont subsequently.

There are a great many things that make becoming an MSP fulfilling and a great thing, but something that I did not expect was that one comes to know as colleagues and friends people whom one had previously regarded only as political figures. That is undoubtedly the case with Iain and Johann. Despite the fact that we will no longer be colleagues with offices on the same corridor—I hope to be re-elected, but this will hold even if I am not—I hope that they will continue to offer their good guidance and counsel. I thank them both, not only on my own behalf but, I hope, on behalf of all Labour members, for their years of service and their contributions, both to the Labour Party and to the Scottish Parliament. We all owe them a great deal of thanks.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item is a debate on motion S5M-24338, in the name of John Swinney, on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill. 1...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
It is my privilege to open the debate on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill. It has been a very challenging bill on a...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
The cabinet secretary has just commented on some survivors who are now elderly. The Government has already introduced the advance payment scheme, and at stag...
John Swinney SNP
To date, the advance payment scheme has made 560 payments to elderly and terminally ill survivors. It will remain open until the statutory scheme can accept ...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I pay tribute to members of the Education and Skills Committee, which I joined only last year, to its convener and to our clerks and our adviser, for their h...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Iain Gray. I understand that this is, indeed, likely to be his last speech in the chamber. 18:49
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I speak in support of the bill, which finally promises some redress for people whom we collectively let down so badly for so lo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Beatrice Wishart. 18:56
Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I am not quite ready, Presiding Officer—I was quite taken by Iain Gray’s speech. The bill has been a long time coming. The journey so far has been long and ...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I will not tell Iain Gray how old I was when he was first elected to Parliament, but I thank him for how much I have learned from him, particularly on the Ed...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate, with speeches of up to four minutes, please. 19:04
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
I, too, pay tribute to Iain Gray. He and I share convenership of the cross-party group on science and technology, and one of the highlights of that was a vis...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Johann Lamont is next. This will be Ms Lamont’s final speech in the chamber. 19:09
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer—just when you have heard from one former Labour leader, another one pops up to say goodbye. We would have quite a lot of them if...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The last contribution in the open debate is from Rona Mackay. 19:18
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I congratulate Johann Lamont and Iain Gray on their very moving speeches. It is not an exaggeration to call them titans of the Labour movement. I wish them v...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We now move to closing speeches. 19:20
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
In summing up the debate, we can all start from the position that was well outlined by the cabinet secretary, Jamie Greene, Iain Gray, Johann Lamont and othe...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I have been very lax with the timings tonight. Please do not take advantage, Mr Whittle. You have up to five minutes. 19:26
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in the debate on what is a very important bill. We have tackled some extremely difficult topics in the lifetime...
John Swinney SNP
I am grateful to colleagues for their engagement on the bill and for the recognition that the Government has tried to engage constructively on all the issues...
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
That concludes our debate on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill. There are a few items before we turn to decision time.