Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)10 March 2021
10 Mar 2021 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I thank Pauline McNeill for that and I thank you, Presiding Officer, for facilitating that intervention.
On the reason why we should not include a sex aggravator now, I note that Rhoda Grant, who might take part in the stage 3 proceedings later on, suggested that we should include it now and then remove it later if the working group says that it should not be in the legislation. However, a concern is held by Scottish Women’s Aid and many others that a sex aggravator, which could apply to men as much as it would apply to women, could do harm. If the suggestion is that we should include it, allow it to do harm to women and then remove it because the expert working group has said, “Yup—it has done harm”, I would ask how many women would be harmed in that process. To me, that seems the wrong way to go about it.
Forgive me—I did not understand Pauline McNeill’s question about what would be a crime, but I am happy to take that away and perhaps address it in writing to her.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh)
NPA
The next item is stage 3 proceedings on the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with the amendments, members should have with them the bi...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Group 1 is on characteristic of sex. Amendment 4, in the name of Johann Lamont, is grouped with amendments 17, 21 and 26.
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
I have issued a detailed letter to all MSPs, outlining the thinking behind all my amendments, and I trust that colleagues have found that useful. I place on ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
I will speak to the amendments in Johann Lamont’s name in group 1, and I thank Johann Lamont for lodging them so that we can debate what I and many women reg...
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
A YouGov poll for UN Women UK that was published this week found that nearly every young woman in the United Kingdom had suffered sexual harassment. Claire B...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I will make a short intervention in support of the amendments in group 1 that have been lodged by Johann Lamont. Over the past few weeks, members from acros...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Green
This is an important debate and I do not wish to silence anyone’s voices. There are important issues at stake here and it is right that that is reflected in ...
Elaine Smith
Lab
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. It is unfortunate that, given the way in which the Parliament has to operate during the Covid pandemic, there is no w...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Thank you, Ms Smith. The point of order relating to proceedings is accurate, in the sense that debates and discussions in which members participate online ar...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Labour will support all the amendments in the group. As Johann Lamont and Pauline McNeill said, in his review of existing hate crime legislation, Lord Bracad...
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
SNP
As a member of the Justice Committee—I should say that I am also a member of the Law Society of Scotland—I have had the opportunity to consider the copious a...
Johann Lamont
Lab
Does Annabelle Ewing agree that the women’s groups that argue against the sex aggravator on that basis welcomed the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018, which...
Annabelle Ewing
SNP
I think that we all welcomed the 2018 act, which is, indeed, the gold standard and something that the Parliament and the Scottish Government can be very prou...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I call the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Humza Yousaf.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf)
SNP
I start by thanking Johann Lamont and all those members who have spoken to her amendments. Although I am about to explain in detail why the Government will n...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Before I invite Johann Lamont to wind up on the group, I notice that Pauline McNeill has requested to speak, so I will bring her in.
Pauline McNeill
Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I asked the cabinet secretary a number of questions. Many commentators have concerns about the length of time that his approach...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
I thank Pauline McNeill for that and I thank you, Presiding Officer, for facilitating that intervention. On the reason why we should not include a sex aggra...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I call Johann Lamont to wind up on the group.
Johann Lamont
Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. You will appreciate that there are quite a significant number of areas that I want to get through. I have asked why we would a...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
The question is, that amendment 4 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Presiding Officer
NPA
There will be a division. As this is the first division of the afternoon, I will suspend the meeting for five minutes to summon members to the chamber and to...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We come to the division on amendment 4, in the name of Johann Lamont. Members may cast their votes now. The vote is now closed. Please let me know if you ha...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
The result of the division on amendment 4, in the name of Johann Lamont, is: For 53, Against 68, Abstentions 0. Amendment 4 disagreed to. Section 3—Offence...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Group 2 is on the threshold for and operation of offences relating to stirring up hatred. Before I call the first amendment, in the name of Liam Kerr, as we ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
My amendments in group 2 are split into two broad principles, and I will speak to each in turn. Amendments 32 and 33 try to protect the right to private and...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
I have a simple question for Mr Kerr. If I were to be beaten up because of the colour of my skin, does he think that I would care whether that hatred had bee...
Liam Kerr
Con
No—of course it would not. However, here we are talking about the dwelling defence and how we protect people from hate speech that might happen around their ...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
It has been clear for months that, notwithstanding all the criticisms that have been made about the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill, a majority o...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
I will speak to the amendments in group 2, beginning with amendment 6. However, I will start in the same place as I did in my response to Johann Lamont’s ame...