Committee
Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints 03 March 2021
03 Mar 2021 · S5 · Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints
Item of business
Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints
Fairness at work applies only to current ministers and mediation is an option there. There is an open question, which people will have different views on, about whether mediation is always an appropriate procedure in cases of sexual harassment and in cases where there is a significant power imbalance. I also think that, for mediation to be a reasonable process, there has to be consent to that on both sides. There is no distinction between current and former ministers in fairness at work, because fairness at work applies only to current ministers. In relation to the procedure that applies to current and former ministers, there is not an express mediation provision in the procedure for current ministers; there is a reference in paragraph 6—that is from memory, and I am sure that it will be noted if I am quoting the wrong paragraph—to seeing whether there is any prospect of resolving things, which is not in the part of the procedure for former ministers. However, that is not an express mediation provision. Why is that in one and not the other? I am not sure that I can fully answer that. We will maybe want to think about that further as we review all this, and Laura Dunlop’s report will part of that. I suppose that, if I was to offer any thought, it is that with a current minister you are more likely to be talking about people who are still working together; maybe if there is an opportunity to resolve something because it has genuinely been a misunderstanding, that provision should be there. However, with a former minister, that is somebody who is not still in the workplace, so perhaps that is not seen to be as appropriate. We will perhaps want to think about that aspect as we complete the review.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Agenda item 2 is our main public business today. It is an evidence session on the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints, in which we will h...
The Convener
SNP
I invite the First Minister to make an opening statement.
The First Minister (Nicola Sturgeon)
SNP
Thank you. The spotlight that was shone on historical workplace harassment in late 2017 was long overdue. It was absolutely right at that time for my Governm...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, First Minister. We will now go to questions. Our committee inquiry, and therefore our report, is split into various sections. It is about the deve...
The First Minister
SNP
The genesis of the new policy was of course the #MeToo revelations of late 2017. I do not need to go into detail on that for people around the table. It was ...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you—I am sure that that will be the case.
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning, First Minister. I will take you back to when the inquiry was announced in January 2019, when you said: “I say that I will answer any question ...
The First Minister
SNP
Ms Mitchell, I consider that that has happened. I concede at the outset that the committee has been frustrated about being unable to access certain informati...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
Openness, transparency and accountability are essential for any Government to maintain trust, but the Deputy First Minister has refused to allow the calculat...
The First Minister
SNP
In the terms that you have just put it, Ms Mitchell, it would clearly not be acceptable. However, you will not be surprised to hear that, although I understa...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
You mentioned that you have been frustrated in having to wait two years to give evidence. Most of us have been in exactly the same position; in fact, we have...
The First Minister
SNP
It did not happen in the case of the two complaints that we are considering here because the Government made a mistake—a very serious mistake—in how it appli...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
I merely comment that to refer to what happened as a mistake or a serious error is somewhat disingenuous. Interruption. If you could let me finish, First Min...
The First Minister
SNP
First, before I answer that, Ms Mitchell, I say genuinely that I am not seeking to be disingenuous in my description of the error. If there is a better word ...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
I am conscious of time. All that I will say is that it was entirely in your remit as the Deputy First Minister to look at complaints at an informal stage. We...
The First Minister
SNP
We will come on to when I did become aware of things, but, as I think that you have heard in evidence from others, before the November 2017 media query from ...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
Can I stop you there, First Minister? I am talking generally. It was five SNP ministers. I remind you that Alex Salmond is a key witness to the inquiry. He i...
The First Minister
SNP
My apologies—I was saying that I had not heard anything, so I was not putting him on trial. Forgive me, Ms Mitchell, I do not know exactly what you are refe...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
This will be my last point. Just for reference—
The Convener
SNP
Could you give the reference for that point, please? 09:45
Margaret Mitchell
Con
I will. The FDA said: “In reflecting back on the last 10 years we are aware of approaches on behalf of around 30 members in relation to at least 5 Ministeri...
The First Minister
SNP
Now that you have given me the reference, I recognise it. I apologise, but I have not been able to watch all the evidence that has been given to the committe...
Maureen Watt (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning. I would like to concentrate on the creation of the new procedure in the light of the #MeToo movement. When Mr Salmond gave evidence, he questio...
The First Minister
SNP
This might be unfair to Alex but, as I heard his evidence on Friday, he seemed to be saying that he did not think that there should have been a procedure in ...
Maureen Watt
SNP
Much has been made about the time difference in devising the policies. Fairness at work was devised over 18 months or so and the new policy took a relatively...
The First Minister
SNP
Again, I go back to the climate at the time and, for want of a better expression, the consensus of opinion that there was a big problem, not only in Scotland...
Maureen Watt
SNP
Under the fairness at work procedure, mediation is an option that is available in cases of complaints against current ministers, so why is there a difference...
The First Minister
SNP
Fairness at work applies only to current ministers and mediation is an option there. There is an open question, which people will have different views on, ab...
Maureen Watt
SNP
It is clear from our evidence that, prior to the introduction of the procedure, complaints were sometimes handled informally; we heard Dave Penman of the civ...
The First Minister
SNP
I will answer that in two ways. Sometimes, it will be a satisfactory way of dealing with a particular complaint, because it will be satisfactory to the perso...