Committee
Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints 03 March 2021
03 Mar 2021 · S5 · Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints
Item of business
Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints
This might be unfair to Alex but, as I heard his evidence on Friday, he seemed to be saying that he did not think that there should have been a procedure in place that was capable of investigating him, because he thought that, if there had been a procedure that allowed investigation of historic allegations, it should have taken 18 months or so to put in place. That is what struck me in that section of his evidence. His view was not just that the complaints against him should not have been investigated but that it should have been impossible to investigate them, because there should have been no procedure that allowed that to happen. I fundamentally disagree with that. I know that the committee pursued a line of questioning with Mr Salmond and others about the fact that the Parliament is changing its procedures to allow historic complaints against MSPs to be investigated—in fact, I think that the bill for that comes to stage 3 at some time over the next few days. On what we decided to do, first, in the light of #MeToo, the Cabinet took a decision on 31 October to review its procedures; it did not take that decision with a preconceived notion of what the outcome of the review should be. We gave the civil service an open commission to review procedures. I know that we are talking about this after the passage of some time but, given the profile of the #MeToo revelations and how much attention was given to the issue, organisations the world over were doing that at the time. It would not just have been remiss of us not to do it; I am pretty sure that it would have attracted substantial criticism had we not done it. That is the first point. Secondly, as that process started and as the gaps and weaknesses in the existing procedures were identified, the view was that a stand-alone process that could involve current or former ministers and that expressly allowed historic allegations to be investigated was appropriate. Some of the points that Margaret Mitchell made to me about the setting of the bar in fairness at work and the focus on informal resolution and mediation were part of the consideration about whether that approach was appropriate for the kind of complaints that we were seeking to put a procedure in place to deal with.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Agenda item 2 is our main public business today. It is an evidence session on the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints, in which we will h...
The Convener
SNP
I invite the First Minister to make an opening statement.
The First Minister (Nicola Sturgeon)
SNP
Thank you. The spotlight that was shone on historical workplace harassment in late 2017 was long overdue. It was absolutely right at that time for my Governm...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, First Minister. We will now go to questions. Our committee inquiry, and therefore our report, is split into various sections. It is about the deve...
The First Minister
SNP
The genesis of the new policy was of course the #MeToo revelations of late 2017. I do not need to go into detail on that for people around the table. It was ...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you—I am sure that that will be the case.
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning, First Minister. I will take you back to when the inquiry was announced in January 2019, when you said: “I say that I will answer any question ...
The First Minister
SNP
Ms Mitchell, I consider that that has happened. I concede at the outset that the committee has been frustrated about being unable to access certain informati...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
Openness, transparency and accountability are essential for any Government to maintain trust, but the Deputy First Minister has refused to allow the calculat...
The First Minister
SNP
In the terms that you have just put it, Ms Mitchell, it would clearly not be acceptable. However, you will not be surprised to hear that, although I understa...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
You mentioned that you have been frustrated in having to wait two years to give evidence. Most of us have been in exactly the same position; in fact, we have...
The First Minister
SNP
It did not happen in the case of the two complaints that we are considering here because the Government made a mistake—a very serious mistake—in how it appli...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
I merely comment that to refer to what happened as a mistake or a serious error is somewhat disingenuous. Interruption. If you could let me finish, First Min...
The First Minister
SNP
First, before I answer that, Ms Mitchell, I say genuinely that I am not seeking to be disingenuous in my description of the error. If there is a better word ...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
I am conscious of time. All that I will say is that it was entirely in your remit as the Deputy First Minister to look at complaints at an informal stage. We...
The First Minister
SNP
We will come on to when I did become aware of things, but, as I think that you have heard in evidence from others, before the November 2017 media query from ...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
Can I stop you there, First Minister? I am talking generally. It was five SNP ministers. I remind you that Alex Salmond is a key witness to the inquiry. He i...
The First Minister
SNP
My apologies—I was saying that I had not heard anything, so I was not putting him on trial. Forgive me, Ms Mitchell, I do not know exactly what you are refe...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
This will be my last point. Just for reference—
The Convener
SNP
Could you give the reference for that point, please? 09:45
Margaret Mitchell
Con
I will. The FDA said: “In reflecting back on the last 10 years we are aware of approaches on behalf of around 30 members in relation to at least 5 Ministeri...
The First Minister
SNP
Now that you have given me the reference, I recognise it. I apologise, but I have not been able to watch all the evidence that has been given to the committe...
Maureen Watt (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning. I would like to concentrate on the creation of the new procedure in the light of the #MeToo movement. When Mr Salmond gave evidence, he questio...
The First Minister
SNP
This might be unfair to Alex but, as I heard his evidence on Friday, he seemed to be saying that he did not think that there should have been a procedure in ...
Maureen Watt
SNP
Much has been made about the time difference in devising the policies. Fairness at work was devised over 18 months or so and the new policy took a relatively...
The First Minister
SNP
Again, I go back to the climate at the time and, for want of a better expression, the consensus of opinion that there was a big problem, not only in Scotland...
Maureen Watt
SNP
Under the fairness at work procedure, mediation is an option that is available in cases of complaints against current ministers, so why is there a difference...
The First Minister
SNP
Fairness at work applies only to current ministers and mediation is an option there. There is an open question, which people will have different views on, ab...
Maureen Watt
SNP
It is clear from our evidence that, prior to the introduction of the procedure, complaints were sometimes handled informally; we heard Dave Penman of the civ...
The First Minister
SNP
I will answer that in two ways. Sometimes, it will be a satisfactory way of dealing with a particular complaint, because it will be satisfactory to the perso...