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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 25 February 2021

25 Feb 2021 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Income Tax Rate Resolution 2021-22
Mason, John SNP Glasgow Shettleston Watch on SPTV

I will not, after Mr Findlay’s insult to the cabinet secretary.

The section on tax policy in the Finance and Constitution Committee’s report—paragraphs 167 to 178—which has been referred to, is well worth reading. It calls for an inquiry into and a debate on a Scottish approach to taxation.

I accept that today we are specifically looking at income tax rates, but this seems like a good time to start thinking of the way ahead: the recovery from the pandemic and how tax fits as part of that. I think that there is an appetite among the public to support the NHS and pay more for care workers and care homes, and perhaps to pay more tax in order to fund those things. Even Scottish Chambers of Commerce agreed that it would support a debate on tax reform. After all, many businesses that have traditionally argued for lower taxes across the board have been very keen to receive funding from the public purse, which of course is funded by all of our taxes.

We have had a Citizens Assembly of Scotland report, and we had a debate on that last week. A key theme of that was the lack of understanding of taxation among the public. However, we know that 99 per cent of the public understand budgeting perfectly well. They have to juggle income and expenditure to get a balance, and they know that we in Parliament need to do so as well.

I very much support the call for the incoming members of Parliament and the incoming finance committee to consider an inquiry and a wider debate during 2021-22 so that the results can impact on the budget in 2023-24.

I turn to income tax more specifically. We heard from witnesses, including the Office for Budget Responsibility, that fiscal consolidation will be necessary in the medium term, particularly if interest rates rise and the cost of borrowing increases. I do not want to see public spending cut in either the UK or Scotland. At some point, we need to look at taxes, including income tax.

I take the point that we do not want to damage the recovery by raising taxes too soon and taking away money that might be better spent with businesses that are struggling. The Government makes the point that it wants to give certainty and stability, and I very much support that.

Thanks to an increase in the number of bands a while back—I accept that the Greens were part of that discussion—we have a more progressive system than the UK has. Some people are clearly struggling financially, with the hospitality sector and much of retail still closed. Workers’ hours are being reduced and, in particular, it is clear that women and low-paid workers have been suffering most. However, some people are better off because of Covid—that probably includes most members. People on fixed salaries have saved on commuting, meals, nights out, childcare and a range of other expenditure. Some people could therefore afford to pay a bit more tax.

I refer back to the previous debate and the importance of the differential social and economic impact of Covid. I believe that we need to look at increasing equality by targeting our expenditure at those who are most in need and by expecting those who are most able to contribute more to do so.

Overall, I am happy to support the Scottish rate resolution, but we need to look more closely at taxation in the medium to longer term.

17:12  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-24225, in the name of Kate Forbes, on the Scottish income tax rate resolution. Members should note that t...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance (Kate Forbes) SNP
Apparently so. I move, That the Parliament agrees that, for the purposes of section 11A of the Income Tax Act 2007 (which provides for income tax to be cha...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
That is excellent—off we go. 16:37
The Minister for Trade, Innovation and Public Finance (Ivan McKee) SNP
I had checked the choreography with my officials earlier. The process is apparently that the cabinet secretary moves then I speak to the motion. I am delight...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It is a peculiarity of the budget process that we have to set the rate resolution before our final vote on the budget. We do not yet know the final overall s...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Murdo Fraser Con
If I have time, I will give way.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You will get your time back, Mr Fraser.
John Mason SNP
Does Murdo Fraser accept that people are attracted to Scotland for a range of reasons? For most people, the tax rate is not the dominant reason. They come he...
Murdo Fraser Con
Mr Mason is right that there are all sorts of factors that lead to people coming to and leaving Scotland. However, if I were him, I would be very nervous abo...
Ivan McKee SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Murdo Fraser Con
I will, if I have time.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The minister must be very brief.
Ivan McKee SNP
I will clarify the point that I made. I said that the £119 million reflects the better performance of income tax raising in Scotland than that in the rest of...
Murdo Fraser Con
That was a very long intervention. If the minister checks the record, he will see that he said—I listened to him very carefully—that the £119 million include...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
There is some time for interventions. 16:54
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
Since the Government took charge of Scottish income tax rates, Labour members have been critical of how it has used the powers. For years, the SNP demanded t...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
This is like a blast from the past—the debates of yesteryear, when we used to argue about tax rises and whether we would get extra revenues or whether there ...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
The current session of the Parliament has seen the only substantial tax reform since devolution, with a new, five-band system of income tax that is closely m...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. There is a little time in hand for interventions. 17:07
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
We now move on to the other side of the budget equation: where the money is to come from to pay for the expenditure that we need and want. I have to say that...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
John Mason SNP
I will not, after Mr Findlay’s insult to the cabinet secretary. The section on tax policy in the Finance and Constitution Committee’s report—paragraphs 167 ...
Bill Bowman (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The SNP is seeking members’ agreement to the proposed rates and bands for Scottish income tax. The Scottish Conservatives believe that it is unfair to burden...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way on that point?
Bill Bowman Con
On which point?
Tom Arthur SNP
That was a very good riposte. Can Mr Bowman confirm that it is still Conservative Party policy that there should be parity between the income tax rates in S...
Bill Bowman Con
I will not, because I am not running in the election. I think that Murdo Fraser said that our aim is that we should reach a parity position at least in due c...
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
Mr Bowman, through me, please.
Bill Bowman Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer. We say to the Scottish people that there is at least one party in this chamber that is on their side, that does not want to s...