Committee
Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee 23 February 2021
23 Feb 2021 · S5 · Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee
Item of business
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Much has already been said about MROs, so I will try not to repeat all the arguments—I am aware that this discussion is taking quite a long time. I think, from listening to the debate, that there seems to be a bit of confusion about whether we are trying to achieve consistency with what is happening in England and Wales or whether—as was said earlier—there is no need to be consistent. However, from a business perspective, and in discussing how the arrangements operate across the whole of the UK, it is important to have some consistency. Several of my amendments—amendments 61 to 63 and 65—are all about ensuring that consistency and not falling out of step, which would make doing business in Scotland more difficult. Amendment 66 is important, as it ensures that pub-owning businesses are not under an obligation to grant a longer lease than would otherwise be conferred on a tied pub tenant. By default, it would give a form of security by the back door. Such matters have been taken to court. The problem was highlighted in the High Court, in the case of Punch Partnerships (PTL) Ltd and Another v The Highwayman Hotel (Kidlington) Ltd—there is a longer title than that; I am sure that members will look it up if they are interested. 12:15 It is important that the MRO lease is consistent with a length of term that is reasonable. If we are not reasonable in what we do, the market will inevitably be decimated. We should not do anything that creates a back-door route to a secure tenancy, because then the pubcos will pull away from investing. The bill should not be an easy way of getting a cheap building. I intend to move the amendments in my name. We have spoken to the minister about some of these matters. He lodged slightly different amendments, which he thinks cover the issues. However, they do not take exactly the same approach as ours, and members should consider the differences.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Under agenda item 2, the committee will consider the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome to the meeting Neil Bibby, who is the member in charge o...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 15, in the name of Maurice Golden, is grouped with amendments 16 and 17. I will call Maurice Golden to move amendment 15 and speak to all the amend...
Maurice Golden
Con
Thank you, convener.—Inaudible.—approaching the bill. It is unhelpful to take a Marxist view of tenants versus landlords or multinationals versus tenants wit...
The Convener
Con
Willie Coffey would like to make a point of order.
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
SNP
On a point of order, convener. I want to get your guidance on how much time you will allow for members to make their points. Maurice Golden spoke for more t...
The Convener
Con
My notes suggest that he spoke for seven minutes and not 10. However, the record will show how long it was. The reason for allowing Maurice Golden some leewa...
Willie Coffey
SNP
Thank you, convener.
The Convener
Con
Bearing that comment in mind, I turn to another member of the committee. Richard Lyle, you will start at 09:17, according to my clock.
Richard Lyle (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
SNP
Am I going to be timed? During the pandemic, it has been evident that the hospitality industry has arguably suffered the most. With lockdowns, strict restri...
The Convener
Con
We need not worry too much about that. It was brief and to the point, as always. I have two points to make. First, I have been advised by the clerks that, t...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Good morning. My amendment 17 recognises that the process has been rushed and that we lack a solid evidence base. It would require more dialogue between the ...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
You will be pleased to know that I do not intend to speak to every group of amendments, convener. The committee has a responsibility, which I wrote to the co...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
A number of members have discussed how we should approach the amending stage. Having dealt with a number of bills in the current parliamentary session, I bel...
The Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills (Jamie Hepburn)
SNP
I am here today to set out the Government’s views on amendments to the bill. I stress that it is, of course, not a Government bill, but Mr Bibby’s member’s b...
The Convener
Con
Before Neil Bibby winds up on the group, I want to ask the minister about the proposal in subsection (c) in amendment 17 that the Scottish ministers must “h...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Of course not, convener—
The Convener
Con
Inaudible.—I think that a contrast is drawn out there between Scottish law and English law.
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
I beg your pardon, convener. I did not hear part of what you said. However, my perspective is that we clearly have to have regard to those matters. Anything ...
The Convener
Con
Thank you, minister. We come to Neil Bibby, who is the member in charge of the bill.
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Good morning. First, I respectfully say to the committee that the purpose of stage 2 is not to reopen the debate on the general principles of the bill, as Mr...
The Convener
Con
I ask Maurice Golden to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 15.
Maurice Golden
Con
Thank you, convener. If the bill is passed and the Scottish Government has the same composition by the time the act is in place, my amendment 15, which chang...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 15 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against ...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 15 disagreed to.
The Convener
Con
Does Richard Lyle wish to move amendment 16?
Richard Lyle
SNP
I listened with interest to the comments that were made about my amendment and I have taken them on board. I will not move the amendment. I am sure that Mr R...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 17 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against ...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 17 disagreed to. Section 1 agreed to. Schedule 1—The Scottish Pubs Code