Committee
Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee 23 February 2021
23 Feb 2021 · S5 · Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee
Item of business
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I am here today to set out the Government’s views on amendments to the bill. I stress that it is, of course, not a Government bill, but Mr Bibby’s member’s bill. Like Mr Golden, I want to see a successful tied pub sector in Scotland with a level playing field in the relationship between the tied pub tenant and their landlord. I say to Mr Golden that I certainly do not approach the issue from a Marxist perspective. It is essential that the bill works as well as possible for everyone who is involved in the sector. The Scottish Government does not support amendments 15 to 17. Amendment 15 would remove the statutory requirement to produce the code and make the power conferred on the Scottish ministers permissive rather than obligatory in nature. Given the central nature of the code to the bill, the Government’s position is that it will be introducing a code and, as such, making it optional to do so is unnecessary. It would also provide a lack of certainty for the sector on how we might move forward. Amendment 16 would result in pub-owning companies needing to comply with a hitherto voluntary code of practice. We know from the stage 1 evidence that there are concerns about the voluntary code’s effectiveness, although it will be a useful basis on which we can inform the consultation that we will undertake. On amendment 17, I fully agree that comprehensive consultation is required before any code is produced, but I do not agree with the requirement for the consultation period to last for at least two years. I am committed to a meaningful consultation in the development of a Scottish pubs code, but that duration strikes me as being unnecessarily long and it would only serve to delay the implementation of the code. In any event, the amendment is not required as the Government will consult as a matter of course on the detail of the code and it will of course comply with the existing requirements to produce impact assessments. I ask members not to support amendments 15 to 17.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Under agenda item 2, the committee will consider the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome to the meeting Neil Bibby, who is the member in charge o...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 15, in the name of Maurice Golden, is grouped with amendments 16 and 17. I will call Maurice Golden to move amendment 15 and speak to all the amend...
Maurice Golden
Con
Thank you, convener.—Inaudible.—approaching the bill. It is unhelpful to take a Marxist view of tenants versus landlords or multinationals versus tenants wit...
The Convener
Con
Willie Coffey would like to make a point of order.
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
SNP
On a point of order, convener. I want to get your guidance on how much time you will allow for members to make their points. Maurice Golden spoke for more t...
The Convener
Con
My notes suggest that he spoke for seven minutes and not 10. However, the record will show how long it was. The reason for allowing Maurice Golden some leewa...
Willie Coffey
SNP
Thank you, convener.
The Convener
Con
Bearing that comment in mind, I turn to another member of the committee. Richard Lyle, you will start at 09:17, according to my clock.
Richard Lyle (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
SNP
Am I going to be timed? During the pandemic, it has been evident that the hospitality industry has arguably suffered the most. With lockdowns, strict restri...
The Convener
Con
We need not worry too much about that. It was brief and to the point, as always. I have two points to make. First, I have been advised by the clerks that, t...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Good morning. My amendment 17 recognises that the process has been rushed and that we lack a solid evidence base. It would require more dialogue between the ...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
You will be pleased to know that I do not intend to speak to every group of amendments, convener. The committee has a responsibility, which I wrote to the co...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
A number of members have discussed how we should approach the amending stage. Having dealt with a number of bills in the current parliamentary session, I bel...
The Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills (Jamie Hepburn)
SNP
I am here today to set out the Government’s views on amendments to the bill. I stress that it is, of course, not a Government bill, but Mr Bibby’s member’s b...
The Convener
Con
Before Neil Bibby winds up on the group, I want to ask the minister about the proposal in subsection (c) in amendment 17 that the Scottish ministers must “h...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Of course not, convener—
The Convener
Con
Inaudible.—I think that a contrast is drawn out there between Scottish law and English law.
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
I beg your pardon, convener. I did not hear part of what you said. However, my perspective is that we clearly have to have regard to those matters. Anything ...
The Convener
Con
Thank you, minister. We come to Neil Bibby, who is the member in charge of the bill.
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Good morning. First, I respectfully say to the committee that the purpose of stage 2 is not to reopen the debate on the general principles of the bill, as Mr...
The Convener
Con
I ask Maurice Golden to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 15.
Maurice Golden
Con
Thank you, convener. If the bill is passed and the Scottish Government has the same composition by the time the act is in place, my amendment 15, which chang...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 15 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against ...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 15 disagreed to.
The Convener
Con
Does Richard Lyle wish to move amendment 16?
Richard Lyle
SNP
I listened with interest to the comments that were made about my amendment and I have taken them on board. I will not move the amendment. I am sure that Mr R...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 17 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against ...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 17 disagreed to. Section 1 agreed to. Schedule 1—The Scottish Pubs Code