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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Virtual) 04 February 2021

04 Feb 2021 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
European Charter of Local Self-Government (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I thank all members who have contributed to the debate. I welcome the widespread support and encouragement and the points that have been raised. I will not get drawn into some of the more political contributions, although it is notable that the charter has been a political document. I gently point out to the Conservatives that Conservative Governments from 1985 to 1997 refused to sign the charter, as they regarded it as an interference with the sovereignty of Parliament. However, I know that the Scottish Conservatives have moved on and that they support local autonomy, and I very much welcome that. I also note that the SNP white paper on independence advocated incorporation of the charter, and I welcome the fact that we will now be able to do that.

Most European countries do not need to do what I propose that we do in the bill. That is either because they have constitutional protections for local government, such as in Germany, where article 28 of the constitution guarantees political and fiscal autonomy, or because they have a monist legal system, which means that international law to which they are a signatory automatically becomes part of domestic law.

As a number of members have pointed out, however, the UK as a whole remains a very centralised state and Scotland, too, has one of the most centralised and concentrated systems of local government. In that regard, I was struck by a comment that was made in oral evidence by Councillor Malcolm Bell, the leader of Shetland Islands Council. He said:

“Scotland likes to think of itself as a very European nation, which is an aspiration that I agree with. However, in terms of its centralisation habits, Scotland is a very British nation. I think that the adoption of the bill would go a long way towards changing that perception.”—[Official Report, Local Government and Communities Committee, 18 November 2020; c 33.]

A number of members talked about the practical impact of the bill, including James Dornan as convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee. It is important to stress that this is principally about a culture change. John Finnie talked about heightened awareness, and it is awareness that the charter articles are law that will, I hope, improve policy making and dialogue between central and local government.

The bill will not in and of itself fix the various issues with local government that members have mentioned, but I hope that the Government will have to think carefully about whether, for example, we are indeed complying with article 9.3, on financial resources. The Council of Europe has established no judicial oversight mechanism in relation to the charter, apart from monitoring missions to member states. In 2014, the monitoring mission noted a number of positives, but also, for example, a failure to comply with article 2, on incorporation, which the bill addresses.

Alexander Stewart talked about financial powers, which is the subject of one of the main political debates that we have in Parliament about the powers of local government. Article 9 and its various sub-articles address that quite well.

The Faculty of Advocates noted issues with article 4, and Alex Cole-Hamilton mentioned his former colleague Tavish Scott arguing for a power of general competence. That is indeed a legal obligation under article 4.2.

Professor Himsworth told the committee that current arrangements for local taxation and rate-setting powers are “pretty precarious” in terms of compliance with article 9.3.

Members have hinted that the articles are drafted in broad terms and that the courts might have difficulty interpreting them. Of course, they were negotiated as broad articles so that they would be acceptable to 47 countries with very different constitutional and democratic traditions.

Unlike its more famous cousin, the European convention on human rights, which has a judicial mechanism built into it, the charter does not. There has been very little litigation in Europe on the charter. If any dispute arises—as it no doubt will in due course—and ends up in the Scottish courts, they will have the task of doing what they do day in, day out, which is interpreting statute and the articles. I am confident that, over time, the Scottish courts will have no problem in doing that.

Alison Harris mentioned low turnouts at elections. Across Europe, countries have turnouts as high as 80 per cent in many cases. Where local government has power, people take note, they participate and they benefit. David Torrance reminded us of the ancient history of local government—Kirkcaldy’s council was founded in 1582. I welcome Stewart Stevenson’s backhanded compliment, and I commend him for his astute and perceptive analysis. Rhoda Grant was right to highlight the state of local government in the Highlands, with Highland Council being a very large authority and Orkney Islands Council being a very small authority. Sarah Boyack hinted that the bill is an opportunity for a reset of relationships.

Members’ bills take quite a bit of effort, and I would like to thank my staff, Charlotte Maddix and Gillian Mackay, for their hard work and support over the past three years.

In January 2020, the Parliament voted to fly the flag of the Council of Europe outside this chamber, in recognition of the UK’s continued membership of the council and the Parliament’s commitment to human rights, democracy and the rule of law. Let us vote tonight to deliver the aspiration of campaigners for devolution and to join the rest of Europe and incorporate this important treaty into Scots law.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23963, in the name of Andy Wightman, on the European Charter of Local Self-Government (Incorporation) (Sc...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Ind) Ind
I am delighted to open this stage 1 debate on the European Charter of Local Self-Government (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill. I thank all those who contribute...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I remind members that, if they want to take part in the debate, they have to type R in the chat function. 14:57
James Dornan (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) SNP
As the convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee, I am pleased to speak in support of the bill, which was introduced by Andy Wightman, our c...
The Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Local Government (Aileen Campbell) SNP
Did you introduce me, Presiding Officer? I did not hear you.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I did, but I am happy to do it—Inaudible. The cabinet secretary will open for the Government.
Aileen Campbell SNP
Apologies—I think that your sound cut out. Nonetheless, I will proceed. I thank Andy Wightman for introducing the bill and steering it to this point. That i...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am delighted to take part in this debate on the European Charter of Local Self-Government (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill and to open on behalf of the Scot...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Sarah Boyack to open for Labour. 15:15
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I am delighted that we are discussing the incorporation of the European Charter of Local Self-Government. In 1997, the Labour Government signed up to the cha...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call John Finnie to speak on behalf of the Green Party, and I hand over the chair to my colleague. 15:20
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
I congratulate my friend and colleague Andy Wightman on getting his worthy bill proposal to this point. I know how much work is involved, and the commitment ...
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
I thank my colleague Christine Grahame for handing over the chair. I call Alex Cole-Hamilton, to be followed by Keith Brown. 15:24
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I offer my thanks and the thanks of my party to Andy Wightman for introducing an important bill to the Parliament. It is a reminder of what an asset he is to...
Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) SNP
I come to the debate with the benefit, most recently, of being a member of the Local Government and Communities Committee, which has held three meetings to h...
Alison Harris (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
The debate about autonomy for local authorities in Scotland has gone on for some time in the Scottish Parliament. Most parties have, at various points and fr...
David Torrance (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) SNP
I thank my colleague Andy Wightman for his hard work on the bill. I served as a councillor on Fife Council from 1995 until I was elected as an MSP in 2011. ...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I congratulate our number 1 pain in the whatever, Andy Wightman, who is so to great and good effect in this particular case, as in so many others. As a memb...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
I speak in support of the bill, which seeks to incorporate the European Charter of Local Self-Government into Scots law, as others have mentioned. The chart...
Gordon MacDonald (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) SNP
I, too, thank Andy Wightman for introducing the bill. At its heart, this is about strengthening our democracy in every community across Scotland, making it m...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Fulton MacGregor, who will be the final speaker before we move to closing speeches. 15:52
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
As other members have said, the Scottish Government values the role of local government and is committed to supporting the bill. I am not a member of the Loc...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the closing speeches. 15:57
Sarah Boyack Lab
This has been an important debate. Following this bill, it is vital that we see the change that COSLA’s political leadership has agreed that we need on a cro...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
It is a pleasure to speak in the debate. I thank the Local Government and Communities Committee for its work on the bill. It produced a first-class report, a...
Aileen Campbell SNP
It is clear that there is cross-party support for the bill and that members recognise and appreciate the unique role of local government in Scotland. As I ma...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Andy Wightman to close our debate. 16:11
Andy Wightman Ind
I thank all members who have contributed to the debate. I welcome the widespread support and encouragement and the points that have been raised. I will not g...