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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 03 February 2021

03 Feb 2021 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Unexplained Wealth Orders (Donald Trump)

This is a story that goes back a long way. In previous chapters, we saw two successive First Ministers—Jack McConnell and Alex Salmond—actively courting the business interest of Donald Trump, despite already knowing what kind of character he was. We saw the Scottish planning system being overturned for him. We also saw the highest level of environmental protection that any land in Scotland is able to have being overturned; in the end, that protection proved worthless against an environmentally destructive development.

Even before Trump’s candidacy or presidency, he was known around the world to be an untrustworthy, dishonest, racist conspiracy theorist. This was never someone that we should have wanted to associate Scotland’s good name with. Now he is a disgraced former President who left office only after attempting to overturn a democratic election and inciting a violent mob at the Capitol—a mob that was composed of the people he had radicalised: the conspiracists, the white supremacists, the religious extremists, and the grifters of a Republican Party that enabled him. Some people were shocked, whereas others thought that behaviour entirely predictable and in character.

Now that it is all over, maybe some people think that Trump should just go back to being the global joke that he was before he became a global threat. However, people who abuse political office need to be held accountable, not only as a matter of direct justice, but as a clear signal to those who come after them that they will not get away with such abuse. That is why the definition of “a politically exposed person” in the legislation that provides for unexplained wealth orders makes it clear that the status continues after the person has left office. The mechanism is no less relevant to Trump now that he is out of power.

The reasons for the concerns about his financial conduct are long standing and they have been detailed in many places, including reports published by Avaaz and given to the Scottish Government. The purchases in Scotland were part of a very long spending spree, with his spokespeople claiming that he had vast sums of money sitting around and available for investment even though, at the same time, he was apparently being turned down for credit.

The Avaaz report says:

“investigations by the US Department of Justice Office of Special Counsel, the US Congress, and others have unearthed a wealth of evidence tying Mr Trump to alleged ?nancial misconduct, including opening questions about Mr Trump’s ?nancial dealings in Scotland”.

We all know that a number of Trump’s former associates have been investigated and that some have been prosecuted and convicted, including for crimes of dishonesty and financial misconduct.

I have neither the time nor the need right now to go through every single detail of the concerns and questions that surround Trump’s business dealings. That is not what this debate has to be about. We all know what the investigations have shown. The point of this debate and the issue that we bring to the chamber is that it is for Scottish ministers to take action.

I totally understand the principle of independent prosecutors acting without control or guidance in individual cases. When it comes to individual criminal prosecutions, it would be completely wrong for ministers to decide who should be prosecuted and who should not. However, what we are talking about is not a prosecution, but merely going to court and asking for information to be provided.

As the legal opinion that was published recently by Avaaz makes clear, this is a matter of political responsibility for the Government. It says that, as a matter of law, it is simply not possible for the Scottish ministers, including the First Minister, to insulate themselves from the responsibility—legal and political—and accountability for decisions concerning unexplained wealth orders in Scotland. Even if the immediate departmental responsibility for the operation of seeking UWOs has been allocated to the Lord Advocate, that can be only for the purposes of administrative convenience or efficiency. It does not and cannot change the legal responsibilities of the Scottish ministers.

There are reasonable questions to ask a court to put to the Trump Organization. If it can provide reasonable answers to the reasonable questions, it will have no problem. However, the Scottish Government and Scottish ministers have a responsibility to ask those questions, and they cannot maintain the position that they have no ability to act. They do, and so does this Parliament.

I ask that all members back this necessary and relatively modest step towards accountability.

I move,

That the Parliament calls on the Scottish Ministers to use their powers under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 to seek the grant of an Unexplained Wealth Order in respect of Donald Trump’s property transactions in Scotland.

16:39  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a Scottish Green Party debate on motion S5M-24030, in the name of Patrick Harvie, on unexplained wealth orders, Donald Trump. 1...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
This is a story that goes back a long way. In previous chapters, we saw two successive First Ministers—Jack McConnell and Alex Salmond—actively courting the ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
Before I go into the detail of the motion and our amendment, let me make it clear that, frankly, I find former President Donald Trump to be a deplorable indi...
Patrick Harvie Green
I entirely recognise that the Scottish Government is entitled to delegate certain decisions to the civil recovery unit or the Lord Advocate, but that does no...
Humza Yousaf SNP
No, Patrick Harvie is incorrect. He is asking the Cabinet to make a political decision on instigating an investigation into an individual. I have sat in many...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I cannot recall whether you moved your amendment, cabinet secretary.
Humza Yousaf SNP
I move amendment S5M-24030.1, to leave out from “calls” to end and insert: “notes the calls on the Scottish Ministers to use powers under the Proceeds of Cr...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You may have moved it twice, but so be it. 16:45
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
With just four minutes to contribute to the debate, I shall be brief. I remind members that I am a member of the legal profession, although I am an employme...
Patrick Harvie Green
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr Con
I really do not have time. Crown Office investigations must not, of course, be motivated by political pressure, and trying to influence the Crown Office wou...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to open for Labour in this debate on a motion that “calls on the Scottish Ministers to use their powers under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 to...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Let us be clear: the unexplained wealth order was specifically designed to bring transparency to the murkiest of dealings. All that today’s motion does is ca...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Like other members, my main concern is Covid, the vaccination programme, and bringing the pandemic under control. However, even with the pandemic consuming t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am glad that you noticed the time, Ms Harper. You made a very interesting contribution, although I do not know whether you actually spoke to the amendment....
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to hear that, Presiding Officer. Like most members, I celebrated the results of the US presidential election and counted down the days to Joe B...
Humza Yousaf SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The member is in his last seconds.
Colin Smyth Lab
I was literally on my last sentence, but I am sure that the cabinet secretary will pick up on the point that he was going to make in his closing speech. I b...
Alex Rowley Lab
Emma Harper made an interesting point about Trump and his impact on America, which is now a deeply divided country—it is the divided states of America. There...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
By now, unexplained wealth orders are a well-established part of Scotland’s ability to tackle criminal wealth and property retention but, as a legal process,...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I will address some of the remarks that have been made in members’ speeches. It seems that we all have a universal dislike of former President, Donald Trump....
Patrick Harvie Green
I thank members for taking part in what was a deliberately short debate—partly because of the need to prioritise the Covid debate and partly because the issu...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I want to make sure that Mr Harvie is not insinuating that, if the former President was a person of colour, we would somehow treat him any differently, becau...
Patrick Harvie Green
I think that a country that is less powerful than the US would be treated very differently. I do not lay that at the cabinet secretary‘s door, as he has said...