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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Virtual) 26 January 2021

26 Jan 2021 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Post-mortem Examinations (Defence Time Limit) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I thank my colleague Gil Paterson for introducing the bill and for his hard work and tenacity on behalf of victims and their families over many years. The bill is sympathetic and understanding of the grief and anguish felt by those who have lost a loved one, often in the most appalling circumstances, and it reflects a desire to reduce delays or difficulties in allowing grieving victims’ families to hold a funeral following the release of the body. However, there is no evidence to suggest that delays in the return of bodies are caused by inappropriate action or inaction on the part of defence agents.

Since October 2018, there has been a non-legislative forensic pathologist consultant in place to give defence agents greater confidence in initial post-mortem conclusions and to avoid multiple post-mortem examinations without compromising justice. As we have heard, in the year after the protocol was passed, only two defence post mortems were requested, with none since July 2019. That shows that the protocol is working. The Law Society of Scotland suggested that an evaluation of the protocol’s success or otherwise should be undertaken to establish whether there is any absence of due diligence in relation to its application by the defence and whether further measures are needed.

In its current form, the bill could create more defence post mortems rather than fewer. If applications are based on an arbitrary timescale, the provisions could have the opposite effect to the bill’s intentions and could inadvertently exacerbate the stress and pain that are experienced by families.

A defence with only 14 days to request a post mortem before losing its right to do so is much more likely to request one. An increase in applications, which the Law Society says is inevitable, would burden courts with the time and the associated costs needed to support such a process, while it is reasonable to assume that an increase in applications resulting in more post mortems would also be felt by forensic pathologists—of which there is a shortage, as we have heard.

Further scrutiny—of both the bill and the protocol—is required to investigate how best to improve the bill and to ensure that it has no unintended consequences. Covid-19 and the measures that it necessitates continue to impact on the workings of the Parliament. In its stage 1 report, the Justice Committee indicated that it was unable to provide the necessary level of scrutiny, as lockdown restrictions delayed the committee’s hectic work programme. Indeed, this feels like déjà vu, given that we were in exactly the same position only five days ago with Claire Baker’s Culpable Homicide (Scotland) Bill.

Presiding Officer, one wonders why bills are being brought forward to stage 1 without effective scrutiny, which is undoubtedly leading to disappointment both for the member concerned and for those supporting the bill’s aims. We must deliberate consistently and without fear or favour.

The bill before us comes from a place of humanity and a strong desire to help families who are enduring unimaginable grief. Without appropriate scrutiny, however, we risk passing legislation that is incomplete, possibly with unintended and unforeseen consequences.

It is therefore with great regret that I cannot support the bill today.

17:17  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23803, in the name of Gil Paterson, on the Post-mortem Examinations (Defence Time Limit) (Scotland) Bill ...
Gil Paterson (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to open the debate on the general principles of the Post-mortem Examinations (Defence Time Limit) (Scotland) Bill. The bill has been a long ti...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I call Adam Tomkins to speak on behalf of the Justice Committee. 16:49
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
This is the second of two members’ bills that have come to the chamber for debate this month after having been examined by the Justice Committee. As I explai...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I begin, first and foremost, by paying tribute to Gil Paterson for his dedication to the issue over several years, and for his hard work in introducing the b...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Members will be aware that we are running significantly behind as a result of technical difficulties earlier this afternoon. Therefore, before I call the rem...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The Scottish Conservatives will vote against the bill at decision time, but I make it clear that that is a finely balanced decision, because we have a great ...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
I congratulate Gil Paterson on introducing the bill. Inaudible.—to introduce a member’s bill, so it is a success to reach this stage. The bill addresses the...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
This is the third of three member’s bill debates that I have covered recently, following our consideration last week of the bills that had been introduced by...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
At decision time, the Scottish Green Party will support the general principles of the bill, which is what we will be voting on. The bill might not be the fin...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We move to the open debate. I ask for three-minute speeches, please. 17:14
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I thank my colleague Gil Paterson for introducing the bill and for his hard work and tenacity on behalf of victims and their families over many years. The bi...
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I pay tribute to Gil Paterson for the amount of work that he has put into pursing the bill and into an issue that he has raised consistently in Parliament. T...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
It is customary to begin a speech by saying how pleased one is to be taking part in the debate. That is, unfortunately, not the case for me today. To say tha...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
This has been a short debate, but one in which Gil Paterson has highlighted the heartache that any delay in releasing the body of a loved one can cause to a ...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
Justice should be paramount in any criminal justice system and should have two ends: protection of the innocent, including victims of crime, and conviction o...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I thank all those who have contributed to the debate. Once again, I pay tribute—as everyone else has—to Gil Paterson’s hard work on the bill. As I said in my...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I call Gil Paterson, the member in charge of the bill, to wind up the debate. 17:36
Gil Paterson SNP
I will address issues that have been raised in the debate. First, though, it would be remiss of me not to thank everyone in the Parliament’s non-Government b...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Thank you very much. That concludes the debate on the Post-mortem Examinations (Defence Time Limit) (Scotland) Bill. It is now time to move on to the next it...