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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 19 January 2021

19 Jan 2021 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Is it two minutes, Presiding Officer? Thank you for calling me.

I have campaigned on this issue for a decade, because the spy cops scandal was one of the great policing scandals of our time. More than 1,000 social justice groups such as the Stephen Lawrence campaign, involving MPs, trade unions and environmental activists, were infiltrated by agents of the state, some using the identity of dead children and some having intimate relationships with women who bore their children while they were living under an assumed identity.

The bill seeks to introduce a power to provide officers and agents with advance, prospective immunity from prosecution for criminal acts up to and including murder, with no limit on that power. Such immunity from prosecution goes to the very heart of our legal system—no longer will every citizen be equal before the law. We know the scandals that have emerged under the current system, in which there is no immunity from prosecution. Imagine the sort of abuses that would happen if there was full immunity from prosecution. That would be a departure from legal norms and another human rights scandal waiting to happen.

Scotland has its own legal system, and, if the Scottish Government and the Parliament want to legislate on the subject, we should debate and scrutinise such legislation. Let us not accept the proposal that Priti Patel or any other Home Secretary could authorise an order under the bill to give MI5, MI6, police officers, the Gambling Commission, the Food Standards Agency or the officers of many other bodies carte blanche immunity from prosecution for crimes committed in the name of the state.

No one argues that undercover police officers’ work is not important in dealing with terrorism, organised crime or drugs, but the bill is not the way to address the matter. Liam Kerr seems to want people to be given immunity for actions up to murder, which would be regarded as lawful. That would be extraordinary. As a campaigner on the issue, I ask anyone to read the testimonies of victims who have come before the undercover policing inquiry and then ask themselves whether they are doing the right thing in rejecting the LCM and supporting the bill.

Prior approval of immunity would not be a safeguard. We should introduce not total criminal and civil immunity but a public interest defence that can be considered before any court proceedings—that is the way to go. Let us reject the bill, which is an affront to our democracy, to our legal system and to the Parliament, and introduce legislation that we can debate and discuss.

15:46  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23884, in the name of Humza Yousaf, on the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill legi...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I have lodged the motion in order to update the Scottish Parliament on the Scottish Government’s position on the United Kingdom Government’s Covert Human Int...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Does the cabinet secretary consider that the greatest safeguard would be for the Scottish Government to bring forward its own legislation in that area, which...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I agree, and I will suggest that we progress in that way. I will get to that in a little more detail very shortly. There have been some limited improvements...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I ask for three-minute speeches from front-bench members, please. 15:31
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank the cabinet secretary and, especially, the relevant agencies for their engagement on the matter. In my three minutes, I will argue against the motion...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
We support the Scottish Government in rejecting the bill. Covert human intelligence is carried out in several ways, but can mean a police officer infiltra...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
I do not dispute that there is a need for covert work, and I acknowledge that that may involve some lawbreaking. I am referring to dangerous work such as tha...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
As others have said, the existence of and need for undercover agents is widely accepted. That circumstances may arise as part of such work that force the ind...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I call Neil Findlay for a brief open-debate contribution. 15:44
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Is it two minutes, Presiding Officer? Thank you for calling me. I have campaigned on this issue for a decade, because the spy cops scandal was one of the gr...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I am conscious of the time, so I will aim most of my remarks at addressing the issues that Liam Kerr raised. I appreciate his acknowledgement of the engageme...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
That concludes the debate. I remind members to observe social distancing requirements, including when leaving and accessing their seats in the chamber.