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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 19 January 2021

19 Jan 2021 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

As others have said, the existence of and need for undercover agents is widely accepted. That circumstances may arise as part of such work that force the individual to act outwith the law is a natural, if uncomfortable, extension of that concept. Having such an option available to our law enforcement agencies is in the interests of our national security. For example, the intelligence gleaned from infiltrating a terrorist group intent on committing atrocities could save lives. Indeed, it already has. Stepping outwith the law may be necessary to do that effectively. However, it is also right that the authorisation of criminal conduct by covert human intelligence sources is set within a robust legislative framework. In that regard, the bill is overdue, but it is also deficient.

Unfortunately, the proposals that have been put forward by the UK Conservative Government overstep the mark. My Liberal Democrat colleagues at Westminster, working with other parties, have sought to make changes that would deliver a more proportionate but effective set of legal safeguards. Although there have been successes, too often, UK Conservative ministers have refused to budge, so we have a bill that places no limits on the type of crime, including rape, torture and even murder, that could be authorised and no requirement for prior judicial approval of authorisations. All of that leaves open the prospect—the risk—of anything being licensed

“in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom”

or for the purpose of “preventing disorder”. That is not the way to build public trust and confidence, nor is it the best way to protect public safety.

The powers that we are debating today are necessary but must be drawn proportionately and with human rights very much in mind. Unfortunately, despite the best endeavours of Liberal Democrats and other parliamentarians at Westminster, as well as the efforts of the cabinet secretary and his officials, such proportionality has not yet been achieved.

This is genuinely not a position any of us would have wished to find ourselves in. Legal certainty is needed, not least by those we ask to carry out these highly sensitive, difficult and often dangerous roles on our behalf. Scottish Liberal Democrats will continue to work constructively with colleagues across the chamber to make sure that that is secured—if necessary, through urgent legislation—but we cannot support the provisions that are set out in the bill.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23884, in the name of Humza Yousaf, on the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill legi...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I have lodged the motion in order to update the Scottish Parliament on the Scottish Government’s position on the United Kingdom Government’s Covert Human Int...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Does the cabinet secretary consider that the greatest safeguard would be for the Scottish Government to bring forward its own legislation in that area, which...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I agree, and I will suggest that we progress in that way. I will get to that in a little more detail very shortly. There have been some limited improvements...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I ask for three-minute speeches from front-bench members, please. 15:31
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank the cabinet secretary and, especially, the relevant agencies for their engagement on the matter. In my three minutes, I will argue against the motion...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
We support the Scottish Government in rejecting the bill. Covert human intelligence is carried out in several ways, but can mean a police officer infiltra...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
I do not dispute that there is a need for covert work, and I acknowledge that that may involve some lawbreaking. I am referring to dangerous work such as tha...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
As others have said, the existence of and need for undercover agents is widely accepted. That circumstances may arise as part of such work that force the ind...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I call Neil Findlay for a brief open-debate contribution. 15:44
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Is it two minutes, Presiding Officer? Thank you for calling me. I have campaigned on this issue for a decade, because the spy cops scandal was one of the gr...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I am conscious of the time, so I will aim most of my remarks at addressing the issues that Liam Kerr raised. I appreciate his acknowledgement of the engageme...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
That concludes the debate. I remind members to observe social distancing requirements, including when leaving and accessing their seats in the chamber.