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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 19 January 2021

19 Jan 2021 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill
Grant, Rhoda Lab Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

We support the Scottish Government in rejecting the bill.

Covert human intelligence is carried out in several ways, but can mean a police officer infiltrating a criminal organisation, or police officers gaining intelligence from people who are in, or are close to, criminal gangs.

There are a number of issues with the bill. Officers infiltrating criminal gangs will be involved in criminal activities, and legislation overseeing that activity requires to be cognisant of the stresses that those officers are under. It is crucial that oversight be provided by an independent commissioner and that such oversight happens before any criminal activity takes place.

If an officer is to be placed covertly in a criminal gang, the parameters for that activity should be signed off beforehand. If those parameters need to change, that must also be signed off before immunity from prosecution can be given. The bill is not strong enough on that, and allows for a crime to be committed before it is signed off by a commissioner. That does not provide the correct balance of authority.

There are some crimes that surely cannot ever be sanctioned by the state, including murder, rape and torture. If a covert officer finds themselves in a position in which they believe that they must commit a crime that has not been sanctioned but they have no time to seek authority, that must be examined through the criminal justice system. If that officer believed that they had no choice, and that not carrying out the crime would have endangered their lives, the courts would not find against the officer because they would have acted in self-defence. If an officer believes that they can justify the action, they should have no fear of prosecution; indeed, if it were not in the public interest to do so, they would not be prosecuted at all.

If covert intelligence comes from an informant, the police cannot be responsible for that person’s behaviour and the state cannot give them immunity from prosecution, because many of those people are often involved in criminal activity.

The other issue with the bill is to do with where covert intelligence can take place. We have all heard examples in which covert intelligence has been placed within legal organisations, such as trade unions and climate-change activist groups, which are important parts of a functioning and open democracy. To infiltrate the lawful activities of such groups is an assault on all our freedoms. Operations cannot be used for political purposes and must be reserved for the most serious criminal activity only.

We have all heard of cases in which covert officers formed relationships and even had children while undercover, having deceived women into believing that they were someone they were not. That is rape. A person cannot give consent if the person to whom they are giving consent does not exist. If required, the Scottish Government must introduce its own legislation with the right checks and balances.

Scottish Labour cannot support the legislative consent motion and therefore supports the Scottish Government’s motion.

15:38  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23884, in the name of Humza Yousaf, on the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill legi...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I have lodged the motion in order to update the Scottish Parliament on the Scottish Government’s position on the United Kingdom Government’s Covert Human Int...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Does the cabinet secretary consider that the greatest safeguard would be for the Scottish Government to bring forward its own legislation in that area, which...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I agree, and I will suggest that we progress in that way. I will get to that in a little more detail very shortly. There have been some limited improvements...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I ask for three-minute speeches from front-bench members, please. 15:31
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank the cabinet secretary and, especially, the relevant agencies for their engagement on the matter. In my three minutes, I will argue against the motion...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
We support the Scottish Government in rejecting the bill. Covert human intelligence is carried out in several ways, but can mean a police officer infiltra...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
I do not dispute that there is a need for covert work, and I acknowledge that that may involve some lawbreaking. I am referring to dangerous work such as tha...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
As others have said, the existence of and need for undercover agents is widely accepted. That circumstances may arise as part of such work that force the ind...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I call Neil Findlay for a brief open-debate contribution. 15:44
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Is it two minutes, Presiding Officer? Thank you for calling me. I have campaigned on this issue for a decade, because the spy cops scandal was one of the gr...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I am conscious of the time, so I will aim most of my remarks at addressing the issues that Liam Kerr raised. I appreciate his acknowledgement of the engageme...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
That concludes the debate. I remind members to observe social distancing requirements, including when leaving and accessing their seats in the chamber.