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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 17 December 2020

17 Dec 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Swinney, John SNP Perthshire North Watch on SPTV

I am pleased to open this debate on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill. The bill is a significant milestone in delivering a redress scheme for survivors, which many have fought relentlessly to achieve. I acknowledge their bravery and resilience, which have brought us to this point.

I also acknowledge those who are no longer with us. It is right and necessary that we remember their contribution to today’s debate and their persistence in ensuring that we reached this point. I hope that we can now join collectively, as a Parliament and as a nation, to deliver a redress scheme that acknowledges the injustice and the suffering with honesty, humanity and dignity.

The work, the bill and the scheme are for survivors. I extend my sincere thanks to all the survivors who have engaged with us throughout the consultation and the bill process. Their input has been crucial in shaping the bill, and they will continue to play a central part in the development of the scheme.

I thank the Education and Skills Committee for its comprehensive stage 1 report and the Finance and Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee for their consideration of the bill. We responded to the Education and Skills Committee’s very detailed report in a very short space of time. I hope that members of that committee and the Parliament find the Government’s response of assistance in considering how we will take forward the issues that the committee raised. I am grateful for that committee’s support for the general principles of the bill and its acknowledgement of the work that has been done to date with survivor communities and organisations, and I look forward to the debate, which will—I have no doubt—be open, positive, compassionate and constructive. I assure members of the Government’s willingness to engage constructively on the issues that the Education and Skills Committee raised in its consideration of the bill in order that we can maximise agreement on the bill’s provisions.

The bill deals with extremely complex and sensitive matters, and the development of the redress scheme has involved many difficult and balanced judgments. We have learned from schemes around the world, and we will continue to do so as we design and deliver the best redress scheme for the circumstances in Scotland.

We have excellent practice at home from which to learn. Our advance payment scheme has continued to make payments throughout the pandemic. Since April 2019, we have been able to make payments to more than 520 survivors. Financial redress and also the acknowledgement and the apology that are so important to our most elderly and ill survivors have been provided. The scheme has proven that we can deliver a scheme that works for survivors.

Scotland failed to protect its most vulnerable children. The bill is one part of our unshakeable commitment to face up to that shame and make sure that that never happens again. That must be a collective endeavour, and we believe that all those with a responsibility for the failings of the past have a responsibility to do the right thing today. I want to work with the Parliament to deliver the best possible scheme for survivors and to ensure that those who have a moral responsibility to participate do so. The scheme encourages, facilitates and recognises those that are willing to make fair financial contributions to redress payments of survivors. That is what survivors have repeatedly told us that they want to see.

I have noted the committee’s emphasis on the affordability of the scheme for providers. A central element of our approach has been to link contributions to a proportion of the actual redress payments that would be made in the lifetime of the scheme. Taking an alternative approach, such as seeking a capped or fixed contribution, fails to deliver assurance that the organisation will play its part for every survivor who receives a redress payment. It also carries a risk, as seen in other redress schemes around the world, that the cap could be set too low, given the uncertainty over how many survivors will apply to the scheme. [Interruption.]

I will give way to Jamie Greene, first, and I will then come to Mr Johnson.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23707, in the name of John Swinney, on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotla...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
I am pleased to open this debate on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill. The bill is a significant milestone in delive...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I hope that I do not pre-empt Mr Johnson’s question, but does the cabinet secretary accept that, without a cap, the stark reality is that many contributing o...
John Swinney SNP
Mr Greene makes a fair point, but we have to make judgments about the way in which we are able to address survivors’ legitimate aspiration for there to be a ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way. Will he comment on the concept of sustainability being included in the bill, as is highlighted in the ...
John Swinney SNP
That is a reasonable point for us to consider, because there is a fine balance to be struck. Although there is a need for organisations to be held accountabl...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Clare Adamson to open the debate on behalf of the Education and Skills Committee. 15:06
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
As convener of the Education and Skills Committee, I welcome the opportunity to highlight its views on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in C...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
If you have more to say, just say it. We have time.
Clare Adamson SNP
Okay, thank you. That is slightly unusual for you, Presiding Officer.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Excuse me! I might get piqued by that and change my mind. No, I am too big a person to do that.
Clare Adamson SNP
I am grateful, Presiding Officer, especially as it is a very important bill and we want to give due consideration to the other areas. However, I will conclud...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, convener. I call Jamie Greene to open for the Conservatives. 15:16
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I look forward to your generosity in equal measure to members on these benches.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We do not want to set a trend.
Jamie Greene Con
The stark and sad reality is that there is little that we can do to fully compensate victims of abuse in care. Words, pounds, letters and payments are the ph...
John Swinney SNP
I am grateful to Mr Greene for giving way. He has just made the point that contributions are necessary to limit the impact on the public purse. That is one o...
Jamie Greene Con
I understand and accept that relationship. We all want maximum participation in the scheme for the benefit of everyone: contributing organisations, the taxpa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
There is some time in hand. Members may expand a little in this sensitive and important debate. 15:26
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Today has been a long time coming: too long in many ways. It is the latest, and perhaps last, link in a chain of recognition, regret and now, hopefully, redr...
John Swinney SNP
I understand the argument that Mr Gray is marshalling. However, the waiver point is critical, because it hinges on the question of how we enable contribution...
Iain Gray Lab
I take the point and I appreciate that that is the Deputy First Minister’s intention. However, all the evidence that we heard from providers and, indeed, fro...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
The introduction and the passage of the bill were always going to be a painful experience for many survivors. I pay tribute to the survivor groups and indivi...
Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I, too, am pleased to be speaking in the stage 1 debate on the Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill; the bill has been desc...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
Before we move to the open debate, I remind members that, if they are taking part in the debate, they should be in for all the opening speeches and that, eve...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
As we know—and to our collective shame—over several generations, many Scottish children who were placed in the care of organisations or boarded out by the st...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
I am pleased to follow a number of thoughtful speeches. I start by making it clear that, for victims and survivors, no amount of money nor any apology can t...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
The Redress for Survivors (Historical Child Abuse in Care) (Scotland) Bill has been shaped and is owned by the many people who suffered abuse by people who w...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I thank the Scottish Government and the Education and Skills Committee for their work on the bill, and I thank all the survivors who helped to shape it. The...
Alex Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) SNP
I very much welcome the bill. As other members have said—in particular, people such as Jackie Baillie, who, like me, have been in the Parliament since day 1—...