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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 15 December 2020

15 Dec 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Mackay, Rona SNP Strathkelvin and Bearsden Watch on SPTV

I am pleased to speak in the stage 1 debate on the bill, whose general principles I will support today. As the Justice Committee’s deputy convener, I add my thanks to the clerking team and the bill team for the fantastic support that we received throughout scrutiny of the bill, which was a big job that they made immeasurably easier. They enabled the committee to deal with the bill’s many aspects reasonably and consensually.

I am sure that the many victims of hate crime are even more disappointed than I am that the Conservatives will not back the general principles—those victims must feel severely let down. The cabinet secretary gave evidence to the committee twice, which absolutely demonstrates his willingness to engage and listen to all concerns. He has accepted the overwhelming majority of the committee’s recommendations and is willing to engage further on other matters. Given that hate crime numbers in all categories are rising, it is imperative to hold to account those who spread hatred of minority groups.

The first recommendation in the committee’s report says:

“The Committee agrees that the right to freedom of speech includes the right to offend, shock or disturb. The Committee understands that this Bill is not intended to prohibit speech which others may find offensive, and neither is it intended to lead to any self-censorship. The Committee is anxious to ensure, however, that these are not unintended consequences of the Bill.”

That is a good place to start. The bill has achieved huge media and public attention because of fears that freedom of speech might be restrained, but that categorically is not and never has been the bill’s intention. The bill is intended to show that Scotland does not endorse the freedom to abuse or to threaten minorities.

In 2018, Lord Bracadale undertook a hate crime review with a view to consolidating various provisions on hate crime, some of which have existed for decades, and to making the existing fragmented legislation fit for the 21st century by putting it in one bill. The bill implements most of Lord Bracadale’s recommendations, and the legal profession and stakeholders have overwhelmingly welcomed the consolidation.

Recommendations that the Government accepted include those on strengthening protection of freedom of expression provisions and on having an objective test for applying the term “abusive”. On that test, it should be noted that the existing law under section 38 of the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 is widely used, and that any clarification must not restrict the definition in relation to domestic abuse cases, for example, which could have damaging unintended consequences. For that reason—I note what the cabinet secretary said in his intervention on the committee’s convener—I believe that putting clarity in the explanatory notes, rather than in the bill, is the correct decision.

Including the existing offence of racially aggravated harassment in the bill was also accepted, as were new limits on police powers of search and entry.

Some faith groups, artists, authors and others raised concerns about section 4, which was removed entirely. Section 5 of the bill, which deals with possession of inflammatory materials, will be removed by amendment at stage 2.

One of the most important amendments was made by the cabinet secretary even before scrutiny began. As we have heard, it related to part 1 of the bill, on stirring up hatred. The cabinet secretary introduced the requirement to show intent to stir up hatred, which has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law. The amendment was universally welcomed by all witnesses and stakeholders during evidence sessions and is, I believe, the right thing to do.

Each member of the committee followed a specific line of questioning with witnesses. My line of questioning was on the different approach that is taken in the bill to racial hatred, by retaining the “insulting” and “stirring up” elements that have been present in current legislation under the Public Order Act 1986 for 34 years. There was a—[Inaudible.] I do not support that view. Racial hatred accounts for two thirds of all—[Inaudible.]

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald) Lab
The next item of business is a stage 1 debate on motion S5M-23682, in the name of Humza Yousaf, on the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. Members...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I am pleased to open the stage 1 debate on the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. I intend to respond in my speech to a number of issues that were...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Does the cabinet secretary agree that significant numbers of women are targeted precisely because they are women?
Humza Yousaf SNP
Yes, I am certain that that is the case. I will come to a section later in my speech on the misogynistic harassment working group, which will look at the iss...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Does the cabinet secretary agree that hate crime can be tackled without violating the fundamental right of freedom of expression?
Humza Yousaf SNP
Absolutely—that is my entire point. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive. Liam Kerr will know that we have in the bill provisions on freedom of expre...
Johann Lamont Lab
I am sure that the cabinet secretary would recognise that hatred of women, which has been expressed through the centuries, is nothing new. Last Thursday, I...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I do not think that Johann Lamont is interpreting the legislation correctly at all. It does not concern subjective opinions in relation to, for example, the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I call Adam Tomkins to open the debate on behalf of the Justice Committee. 16:17
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Our law reports are replete with resounding statements on the importance of free speech. In the case of R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex pa...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I thank the convener of the Justice Committee for his thoughtful speech. I accept what he says, and I will go back and reflect further on whether we can give...
Adam Tomkins Con
Absolutely—I accept that. However, the committee received a pile of evidence to the effect that we need to think not just about what happens in the criminal ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I am pleased to open for the Scottish Conservatives in the debate on whether the Parliament should agree to the principles of the Hate Crime and Public Order...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Does the member accept that there are other aspects of the criminal law that impact on what happens in one’s home?
Liam Kerr Con
I do. We heard about that in committee. However, I think that my point stands. We do not have protection in the bill for things that are said in the privacy ...
Humza Yousaf SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr Con
Do I have time, Presiding Officer?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Yes, if it is a quick one.
Humza Yousaf SNP
Thus far, Liam Kerr has not really mentioned the victims of hate crime. What does he say to the Equality Network, Stonewall, racial equality organisations, t...
Liam Kerr Con
I say that I thank them very much for their counsel in the committee sessions. I am not sure that this is the point that the cabinet secretary was making, bu...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
I start by echoing some of the comments that Liam Kerr made about the committee and the drafting of its report. I pay tribute to the clerks, to all those who...
Liam Kerr Con
I am grateful to Rhoda Grant for taking a very quick intervention. She knows that I share a lot of her concerns on that issue. Where is Scottish Labour at th...
Rhoda Grant Lab
Obviously, we are considering that as part of what we may do at stage 2. I am not saying that we will do it, but we are looking at it and we will look at the...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I will address Rhoda Grant’s point about there being an easy defence in my closing speech. On the reasonableness defence, I am struggling to understand how b...
Rhoda Grant Lab
I do not have an example, but the law needs to take account of every possible scenario. We have to be careful not to do anything that impinges on people’s fr...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
The bill has taken a rather unusual route thus far. It has certainly prompted a lot of debate. I thank the people who helped us to get to this point: the wit...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
Liam Kerr please, for up to six minutes—sorry, Liam McArthur. 16:55
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
You are not the first and you will not be the last, Presiding Officer. In normal times, this would have been a complex and sensitive bill with potentially f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
All the opening speeches went over time, so we will be strict with the open debate. Members have six minutes for speeches, which must include any interventio...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in the stage 1 debate on the bill, whose general principles I will support today. As the Justice Committee’s deputy convener, I add my ...