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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 15 December 2020

15 Dec 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Grant, Rhoda Lab Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

I start by echoing some of the comments that Liam Kerr made about the committee and the drafting of its report. I pay tribute to the clerks, to all those who gave evidence and to the committee members who took evidence, including my colleague James Kelly.

I joined the committee as the report was being drafted and, to be frank, I was expecting to join a bit of a rammy. However, that was not the case, and that is down to everybody who works with and in the committee. All worked hard to ensure that the committee could reach consensus and I believe that, by doing so, and if the cabinet secretary continues to work with us, we can pass good legislation that will stand the test of time. There are many complex points of law to be considered, but paramount is the balance between freedom of speech and protection from hate speech.

Scottish Labour is supportive of the overall principles of the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill and agrees that it is important to consolidate hate crime legislation. However, we have concerns about the way in which the bill has been drafted. It is welcome that the cabinet secretary has on several occasions listened to concerns, and I hope that he will continue to do so. Although the changes that he has accepted are welcome, I believe that he must go further to meet all the concerns that have been expressed about the bill.

There are concerns about whether to add sex as a characteristic in the bill. There is concern that leaving it out might give a signal that hate crime that is based on sex and misogyny is in some way of lesser importance than other hate crimes. There are also concerns that the promised legislation to deal with misogyny may never transpire.

In Scotland, we know that violence against women is not only about hatred; it is about control and inequality. Engender pointed out that both the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women and the Council of Europe’s Istanbul convention on preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence suggest a presumption against gender-neutral laws that protect men and women in exactly the same way, because those seldom protect women, given that men and women are not equally empowered. That concern has been expressed by Engender, Zero Tolerance, Scottish Women’s Aid and Rape Crisis Scotland, which oppose a sex aggravator and support separate legislation that incorporates the societal issues that underpin misogyny and violence against women.

Scottish Labour welcomes the working group on misogynistic harassment, and agrees that provisions and protections must reflect the serious nature of violence against women. However, we share concerns about the delay, and we reserve our position on adding sex as an aggravator, in order to avoid a hierarchy of protections. We therefore agree with the committee that the working group should report within a year, in order to allow timely implementation of its recommendations, and we will reflect on what may be required between then and the finalisation of the bill.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald) Lab
The next item of business is a stage 1 debate on motion S5M-23682, in the name of Humza Yousaf, on the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. Members...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I am pleased to open the stage 1 debate on the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. I intend to respond in my speech to a number of issues that were...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Does the cabinet secretary agree that significant numbers of women are targeted precisely because they are women?
Humza Yousaf SNP
Yes, I am certain that that is the case. I will come to a section later in my speech on the misogynistic harassment working group, which will look at the iss...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Does the cabinet secretary agree that hate crime can be tackled without violating the fundamental right of freedom of expression?
Humza Yousaf SNP
Absolutely—that is my entire point. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive. Liam Kerr will know that we have in the bill provisions on freedom of expre...
Johann Lamont Lab
I am sure that the cabinet secretary would recognise that hatred of women, which has been expressed through the centuries, is nothing new. Last Thursday, I...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I do not think that Johann Lamont is interpreting the legislation correctly at all. It does not concern subjective opinions in relation to, for example, the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I call Adam Tomkins to open the debate on behalf of the Justice Committee. 16:17
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Our law reports are replete with resounding statements on the importance of free speech. In the case of R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex pa...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I thank the convener of the Justice Committee for his thoughtful speech. I accept what he says, and I will go back and reflect further on whether we can give...
Adam Tomkins Con
Absolutely—I accept that. However, the committee received a pile of evidence to the effect that we need to think not just about what happens in the criminal ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I am pleased to open for the Scottish Conservatives in the debate on whether the Parliament should agree to the principles of the Hate Crime and Public Order...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Does the member accept that there are other aspects of the criminal law that impact on what happens in one’s home?
Liam Kerr Con
I do. We heard about that in committee. However, I think that my point stands. We do not have protection in the bill for things that are said in the privacy ...
Humza Yousaf SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr Con
Do I have time, Presiding Officer?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Yes, if it is a quick one.
Humza Yousaf SNP
Thus far, Liam Kerr has not really mentioned the victims of hate crime. What does he say to the Equality Network, Stonewall, racial equality organisations, t...
Liam Kerr Con
I say that I thank them very much for their counsel in the committee sessions. I am not sure that this is the point that the cabinet secretary was making, bu...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
I start by echoing some of the comments that Liam Kerr made about the committee and the drafting of its report. I pay tribute to the clerks, to all those who...
Liam Kerr Con
I am grateful to Rhoda Grant for taking a very quick intervention. She knows that I share a lot of her concerns on that issue. Where is Scottish Labour at th...
Rhoda Grant Lab
Obviously, we are considering that as part of what we may do at stage 2. I am not saying that we will do it, but we are looking at it and we will look at the...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I will address Rhoda Grant’s point about there being an easy defence in my closing speech. On the reasonableness defence, I am struggling to understand how b...
Rhoda Grant Lab
I do not have an example, but the law needs to take account of every possible scenario. We have to be careful not to do anything that impinges on people’s fr...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
The bill has taken a rather unusual route thus far. It has certainly prompted a lot of debate. I thank the people who helped us to get to this point: the wit...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
Liam Kerr please, for up to six minutes—sorry, Liam McArthur. 16:55
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
You are not the first and you will not be the last, Presiding Officer. In normal times, this would have been a complex and sensitive bill with potentially f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
All the opening speeches went over time, so we will be strict with the open debate. Members have six minutes for speeches, which must include any interventio...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in the stage 1 debate on the bill, whose general principles I will support today. As the Justice Committee’s deputy convener, I add my ...