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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 15 December 2020

15 Dec 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Yes, I am certain that that is the case. I will come to a section later in my speech on the misogynistic harassment working group, which will look at the issue in greater detail. The Justice Committee took a great deal of evidence on that subject.

I make it clear from the outset—it is important to highlight and acknowledge this—that I know that members across the parties have expressed concerns about elements of the bill. I hope that I have demonstrated the conciliatory approach that I wish to take as the bill progresses through the parliamentary process. The Government has shown great willingness to compromise and address those concerns; I am certain that members will show the same willingness, so that, at the end of the process, we will have a bill that the entire Parliament can be proud of. Members might still have concerns about aspects of the bill, but I reiterate that I do not doubt their commitment to tackle hatred and that I will continue to have an open mind on amendments that may be proposed as we move into stage 2 of the parliamentary process.

I will move on to look at the stage 1 report in greater detail. A range of issues were aired during the committee’s scrutiny of the bill and I will touch on some of them. They include the distinct approach that the bill takes on race; finding the appropriate balance between protecting freedom of expression and protecting groups who are targeted by hateful behaviours and speech; and the importance of the working group on misogynistic harassment, which I just referenced to Johann Lamont.

The bill takes a distinctive approach in respect of race compared to that taken to other characteristics. The approach was the subject of considerable debate and discussion during stage 1, but that is a sign of a healthy and robust scrutiny process. That distinct approach means that, in relation to stirring up hatred, the offences for race carry different legal thresholds from those for the other characteristics, which is a situation that is replicated across the UK.

Two thirds of all recorded hate crimes in Scotland relate to race. In 2019-20, there were more than 3,000 charges relating to racial hate crime—eight times a day, every day, someone is targeted because of their race—and those are only the cases that we know about because they have been recorded.

Sadly, there is no denying the prevalence of racial hate crime offending in Scotland, so I believe that a distinct approach for race is needed—and is justified. We need an approach that recognises the seriousness of racial hate crime as well as the impact that it has on community and societal cohesion.

The removal of the word “insulting” from, or repealing, the existing stand-alone offence of racially aggravated harassment could be particularly damaging when it comes to tackling racial hatred in Scotland if doing so was perceived as weakening a criminal law protection in the area of race. If we removed the term “insulting”, we would be the only legal jurisdiction in the UK to do so. The committee heard compelling testimony from equality groups that supported the retention of that term. I am aware that, during its scrutiny of the bill, the committee asked whether the existing offence of racially aggravated harassment—which is also known as a section 50A offence—could be consolidated into the bill. I am pleased to confirm that the Scottish Government intends to do that by way of a stage 2 amendment.

The stirring up hatred offences in the bill prompted the greatest interest throughout scrutiny of the bill. As I said I would, I listened to the voices that expressed concerns in that area, and in September I announced fundamental changes to the operation of the new offences in the bill. I am pleased that the announcement of those changes before stage 1 scrutiny got under way allowed the Justice Committee to focus on the many important aspects of the bill.

The changes that I announced, which have been welcomed by almost all stakeholders, reflected the degree of concern that existed about the potential for the new stirring up hatred offences to lead to people self-censoring entirely legitimate activity. That was because if there was no requirement for there to be intent to stir up hatred in relation to the offence, there could have been at least the perception that the legislation might be used to prosecute legitimate acts of expression, which might have led to an element of self-censorship. It was never the intention for the new stirring-up offences to have that effect.

My proposed changes have allowed us to focus more on the corrosive effects of hate speech. As the committee heard, hate speech can leave entire communities feeling isolated, scared and vulnerable to attack. Although there might be—I accept this point—a relatively small number of prosecutions under the new offences, as has been the case under the existing provisions on race, stirring up hatred against a group of people is abhorrent, and the law must have the tools to address it when and where it occurs. I am pleased that the shift in policy that I announced has seemed to greatly ease the fears of a number of stakeholders.

A number of other issues relating to the operation of the stirring up hatred offences have been debated during scrutiny of the bill. At the Justice Committee last month, I announced that I proposed to remove from the bill specific provisions relating to theatrical performances, which some artistic stakeholders felt singled them out. Although those provisions were based on existing precedent contained in the Public Order Act 1986, I consider that they can be removed without significantly affecting the operation of the bill.

I have confirmed in my response to the stage 1 report that I will add a time limit to the police powers of search and entry in the bill—again, that was recommended by the committee.

I turn to freedom of expression, which I know has been an issue of some concern to members. I know that a frustration has been some people’s view that there is a binary choice between freedom of expression and hate crime law—that it is one or the other. That is not a view that this Government takes, and I know that it is not the view of a number of stakeholders.

Freedom of expression is not and has never been an absolute right, and most members probably accept that. Equally, it is important for the Government to recognise—I give an assurance that we do recognise this—that it is a fundamental freedom that is important to our democracy and the rule of law.

I say to all members that it does not have to be a binary choice between freedom of expression, which we all value, and ensuring that we have strong hate crime laws that afford protection to people who are most often the target of hate. It is not one or the other.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald) Lab
The next item of business is a stage 1 debate on motion S5M-23682, in the name of Humza Yousaf, on the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. Members...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I am pleased to open the stage 1 debate on the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. I intend to respond in my speech to a number of issues that were...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Does the cabinet secretary agree that significant numbers of women are targeted precisely because they are women?
Humza Yousaf SNP
Yes, I am certain that that is the case. I will come to a section later in my speech on the misogynistic harassment working group, which will look at the iss...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Does the cabinet secretary agree that hate crime can be tackled without violating the fundamental right of freedom of expression?
Humza Yousaf SNP
Absolutely—that is my entire point. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive. Liam Kerr will know that we have in the bill provisions on freedom of expre...
Johann Lamont Lab
I am sure that the cabinet secretary would recognise that hatred of women, which has been expressed through the centuries, is nothing new. Last Thursday, I...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I do not think that Johann Lamont is interpreting the legislation correctly at all. It does not concern subjective opinions in relation to, for example, the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I call Adam Tomkins to open the debate on behalf of the Justice Committee. 16:17
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Our law reports are replete with resounding statements on the importance of free speech. In the case of R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex pa...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I thank the convener of the Justice Committee for his thoughtful speech. I accept what he says, and I will go back and reflect further on whether we can give...
Adam Tomkins Con
Absolutely—I accept that. However, the committee received a pile of evidence to the effect that we need to think not just about what happens in the criminal ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I am pleased to open for the Scottish Conservatives in the debate on whether the Parliament should agree to the principles of the Hate Crime and Public Order...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Does the member accept that there are other aspects of the criminal law that impact on what happens in one’s home?
Liam Kerr Con
I do. We heard about that in committee. However, I think that my point stands. We do not have protection in the bill for things that are said in the privacy ...
Humza Yousaf SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr Con
Do I have time, Presiding Officer?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Yes, if it is a quick one.
Humza Yousaf SNP
Thus far, Liam Kerr has not really mentioned the victims of hate crime. What does he say to the Equality Network, Stonewall, racial equality organisations, t...
Liam Kerr Con
I say that I thank them very much for their counsel in the committee sessions. I am not sure that this is the point that the cabinet secretary was making, bu...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
I start by echoing some of the comments that Liam Kerr made about the committee and the drafting of its report. I pay tribute to the clerks, to all those who...
Liam Kerr Con
I am grateful to Rhoda Grant for taking a very quick intervention. She knows that I share a lot of her concerns on that issue. Where is Scottish Labour at th...
Rhoda Grant Lab
Obviously, we are considering that as part of what we may do at stage 2. I am not saying that we will do it, but we are looking at it and we will look at the...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I will address Rhoda Grant’s point about there being an easy defence in my closing speech. On the reasonableness defence, I am struggling to understand how b...
Rhoda Grant Lab
I do not have an example, but the law needs to take account of every possible scenario. We have to be careful not to do anything that impinges on people’s fr...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
The bill has taken a rather unusual route thus far. It has certainly prompted a lot of debate. I thank the people who helped us to get to this point: the wit...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
Liam Kerr please, for up to six minutes—sorry, Liam McArthur. 16:55
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
You are not the first and you will not be the last, Presiding Officer. In normal times, this would have been a complex and sensitive bill with potentially f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
All the opening speeches went over time, so we will be strict with the open debate. Members have six minutes for speeches, which must include any interventio...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in the stage 1 debate on the bill, whose general principles I will support today. As the Justice Committee’s deputy convener, I add my ...