Committee
Public Petitions Committee 25 November 2020
25 Nov 2020 · S5 · Public Petitions Committee
Item of business
Continued Petitions
Public Access Defibrillators (PE1707)
Steven Short
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I agree with everything that Gareth Clegg and David McColgan have said so far. The United Kingdom picture and the international picture are fairly consistent. In parts of the world that have been making good progress on cardiac arrest, as we have in Scotland, we see an increase in bystander CPR rates, but it does not follow that we see an increase in use of PADs. That is about the things that David McColgan and Gareth Clegg mentioned. We need a blended approach. We can learn from parts of the world—Denmark and Melbourne in Australia are excellent examples—where the blended approach was taken. That is not just about training in CPR; it is about increasing training in use of automated external defibrillators and making them more visible, as is suggested in the petition, and ensuring that they are registered, as we are already doing. I highlight again, as the other two witnesses have, that the blended approach and increased awareness are key. There is more to do than just making PADs visible.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Johann Lamont)
Lab
Good morning, and welcome to this virtual meeting of the Public Petitions Committee. The first item on our agenda today is consideration of continued petiti...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you very much. Good morning, everyone. The statement that I am about to read out is from Kathleen Orr. “I would just like to add to my statement that ...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you very much, Stuart. I think that we all agree that that is a very powerful statement and we appreciate just how difficult it is for the family to de...
Steven Short (Scottish Ambulance Service)
Good morning, everyone, and thank you for inviting me along today. Mrs Orr has raised a very reasonable point in the petition. Many of the cardiac arrests th...
The Convener
Lab
Who should be responsible for deciding where PADs are positioned?
Steven Short
The key about a publicly available defib, or a PAD as we call them, is that it needs to be accessible 24/7. Studies from around the world show us that if it ...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you very much. Does David McColgan want to respond?
David McColgan (British Heart Foundation Scotland)
Thank you very much for inviting us to the meeting today and a huge thank you to Kathleen and the Orr family for all the work they are doing in bringing the ...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you. In your submission, you noted that you were undertaking to gather national evidence on the subject. Has that work been completed?
David McColgan
That is Dr Clegg and Dr Clyde’s project as funded by Scottish Government at the Resuscitation Research Group. Gareth Clegg will speak to that.
The Convener
Lab
Are you not involved in that work?
David McColgan
No, the British Heart Foundation has not been involved. That is very much Dr Clegg’s territory and I will leave it to him to speak to that.
The Convener
Lab
Thanks very much. In that case, I ask Dr Clegg to respond to my first question, and to speak to where we are with the research.
Dr Gareth Clegg (Resuscitation Research Group)
Just to clarify the landscape a little bit, I am here today with three hats on. One is as an emergency medicine doctor in Edinburgh. I have worked in cardiac...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you very much, that is really helpful. In the context of defibrillators, is there a role for broader first aid training? The committee has looked at th...
Dr Clegg
I am sorry—I did not realise that the question was aimed at me. Are you asking whether we should be trying to increase first aid training generally in the co...
The Convener
Lab
I am wondering whether, from what you said, there might be a false comfort zone if we provide defibrillators but do not do the other things that you talked a...
Dr Clegg
That is an excellent point. I think, if I understand you correctly, that you are saying that it is not enough just to have the PADs out there, and that peopl...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you very much for that. I will bring in David McColgan then Steven Short for views on people having confidence to use a defibrillator.
David McColgan
I will pick up on Gareth Clegg’s point. We know from national evidence that just placing PADs around a community does not encourage people to use them. About...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you. Steven—do you want to say something about the context for your work?
Steven Short
I agree with everything that Gareth Clegg and David McColgan have said so far. The United Kingdom picture and the international picture are fairly consistent...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you. Stuart McMillan wants to come in.
Stuart McMillan
SNP
I just want to make a point regarding visibility of and access to PADs. If people see more of them in their communities, surely a knock-on effect will be tha...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you very much. That might be something that we will come back to when we hear more from our witnesses. I call Maurice Corry.
Maurice Corry (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning, panel. I thank the petitioner for lodging this very important petition. I will start with Steven Short. The petition calls for the PADs to be r...
Steven Short
We have, as David McColgan mentioned in answer to the first question, a registry of defibrillators called the Circuit. It is a collaboration between the Scot...
Maurice Corry
Con
Yes, it does. However, David McColgan said that by no means are all PADS registered, so there is a gap. I presume that that gap will be filled through Micros...
Dr Clegg
I agree with Steven Short. It is self-evident that if people do not know where a defib is they cannot use it, so defibs need to be well signposted to the peo...
Maurice Corry
Con
Are you saying that the register should include just those that are active and in 100 per cent working order?