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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 26 November 2020

26 Nov 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I accept that the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill has been introduced with good intentions, although the manner in which the member has sought to progress the bill has been inappropriate. Neil Bibby has said of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee that its

“report flies in the face of the evidence placed before them.”

That is not true. The only study that was conducted in Scotland on the issue before the member introduced the bill was the independent CGA study that was commissioned by the Scottish Government, which was quite clear that no sector was significantly disadvantaged when compared with others. Neil Bibby says that 93 per cent of respondents to his survey agree with him, but it was not a statistically robust survey and was flooded by responses from fellow Labour politicians and members.

Neil Bibby also said that

“Tory and SNP MSPs inexplicably want to leave tenants in Scotland with no rights at all.”

That is factually incorrect. However, it reflects a vexatious narrative. That stands in vivid contrast to the approach of Daniel Johnson in introducing his member’s bill.

The bill intends to extend to tied tenants in Scotland similar provisions to those that are in place in England and Wales. However, there are significant concerns about the bill—primarily because the markets are dramatically different. For example, tied pubs make up 36 per cent of the English and Welsh market, whereas tied pubs account for just 17 per cent of the market in Scotland. The bill will be inherently narrow in scope, which raises the question whether there is enough of a problem for it to address.

The committee’s report raised that very point. It said:

“The majority were unconvinced that sufficient evidence was presented to the Committee to suggest that the problem described was large-scale or that there were adequate grounds to warrant legislative interference in contractual agreements.”

Addressing such a fundamental question must be a priority as the bill progresses, or we risk losing investment and jobs. That is to be avoided at the best of times, but especially during the current crisis, when the Scottish pub sector is on its knees.

The provision for market rent only, without qualifying circumstances, is an intrusion into contract law. It is hard to imagine that that would be accepted in other sectors. It could be a serious disincentive for pub companies to invest. We already know what that looks like: following the introduction of the pubs code in England and Wales, UK-wide investment from pub companies flowed to Scottish pubs—it almost doubled from 6.53 per cent to 11.66 per cent. Unfortunately, early signs of investment flight have already appeared in Scotland. An estimated £10 million of investment has been put on hold until the bill is decided on. I hope that not one penny of that investment will be lost, if the bill progresses. If investment is lost, Neil Bibby will have a lot to answer for.

I appreciate that such an outcome is not the intention of the bill. The current voluntary Scottish pubs code offers a model to avoid conflict by giving tenants many of the rights that are included in the bill, including access to independent arbitration, but—crucially—the code does that without risking jobs or investment.

We have seen the essential support that pub companies have provided during the pandemic, including support with stock maintenance, wellbeing checks and millions of pounds in rent concessions to allow pubs to survive. In contrast, independent landlords have, at best, offered mortgage or rent deferrals. If we want more pubs to survive and more pubs to open, the tied pub model offers a route into running a pub that would otherwise require significant financial resources. Pub companies are incentivised—[Inaudible.]—to attract tenants.

Numerous tied tenants from across Scotland have contacted me. From Bearsden to Dundee to Clydebank to Edinburgh, they are living in fear of the bill progressing. Their voices must be heard. If the bill progresses, I expect Neil Bibby to get each and every tied pub tenant to support the bill—even if that is done privately to the committee. If Neil Bibby’s assertions are correct, that should not be a problem.

The Scottish Conservatives recognise the merit in exploring such issues further, so we will vote for the bill at stage 1. However, if the bill is to pass future stages, the bill’s proponents have a responsibility to address the real and pressing concerns that are being raised by businesses and tenants.

17:35  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23343, in the name of Neil Bibby, on the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill. I invite members who wish to speak in...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. It is a critical time for pubs and all those whose livelihoods depend on the licensed tra...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Gordon Lindhurst to speak as convener on behalf of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee. 17:16
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, “This work is dedicated to the abomination of all that restricts travel.” That sounds almost contemporary, but so reads the dedication t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
That is breaking news to me, but I believe you. 17:23
The Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
I begin, sadly, not with the literary flair of the committee convener, but by thanking Neil Bibby for introducing the bill and encouraging and fostering disc...
Maurice Golden (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I accept that the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill has been introduced with good intentions, although the manner in which the member has sought to progress the bill...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I thank Neil Bibby, his team and the non-Government bills unit for the huge amount of work that they have done to get us to the stage 1 debate. I also thank ...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
I, too, commend Neil Bibby for introducing the bill, which the Scottish Greens believe provides for a proportionate and fair intervention in the relationship...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I cannot let this go without comment. I commend Maurice Golden for his contribution. He attempted to demolish the bill before indicating that he will endorse...
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
We move to the open debate. 17:49
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to have the opportunity to take part in the debate on Neil Bibby’s Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill. I congratulate Mr Bibby and his team, and I thank ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I congratulate Neil Bibby on bringing forward a very well-thought-through bill. I know, obviously, that it takes a great deal of effort to get a bill to this...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I was not aware that Mr Johnson spoke about me in private, but I hope that my approach to the bill encourages him to approach such matters with a more open m...
Daniel Johnson Lab
I will bear that in mind. The minister might want to ask some of his colleagues about the things that I say in private about him. In all seriousness, I thin...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
The issue first came to my attention when I was in the UK Parliament in England. I must say that I was impressed by the work of the Lib Dem MP Greg Mulhollan...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I express my empathy for the bill’s principles. My grandfather will be spinning in his grave at a high rate of knots because he was a member of the Independe...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
We are having this debate against a backdrop of the most severe crisis ever to have faced our hospitality sector. Pubs are on their knees. In many parts of t...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
I am not a member of the committee, but I take issue with the comments of Neil Bibby that Graham Simpson has just referred to. My Glasgow Kelvin constituenc...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
I was sympathetic to the bill, but I waited for the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee’s stage 1 report, which is finely balanced. Initially, it appeare...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to closing speeches. 18:18
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
There has been a lot of huffing and puffing in the debate. Some people have been sitting on the fence so long that they are likely to have splinters in sensi...
Dean Lockhart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
The debate on the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill has been lively—and not just here in the chamber, because it has generated a lot of strong views across the pub s...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will Dean Lockhart acknowledge that landlords providing financial comfort to tenants through the crisis is not the exclusive preserve of this sector, that it...
Dean Lockhart Con
That is a fair point. However, if there is any risk that there would be a decline in landlords investing in pubs in Scotland in the future, that financial su...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I will respond to as much of the debate as I have time to. However, I start with an apology to Daniel Johnson. I am incredibly sorry that I have not conforme...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the minister give way?
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Perhaps this is the beginning of it.
Daniel Johnson Lab
I thank the minister for giving way. I confirm that my opinion of him is quite transformed; unfortunately, my poor sense of humour is not.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Clearly, neither is mine—I was only joking, Mr Johnson. Andy Wightman welcomed that I was not persuaded by the committee’s recommendations, which is—I suppo...