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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 November 2020

19 Nov 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Coronavirus (Scotland’s Strategic Approach)

Most of the indicators in the new level 4 council areas have not been breached. In fact, all but one has infection rates in decline. The infection rates and projected rates all fall below the indicators. Only two councils breach the test positivity rate. The indicators were supposed to give people fairness, hope and clarity that, if they did the right thing, measures would be eased. Through their sacrifices, the virus has gone down, but the level of restrictions is going up, and it is going up through the lack of adequate hospital capacity. That capacity is under threat, even when the infection rate in the community is lower than was expected in the strategic framework.

Advances in medicine and care have helped to secure better outcomes for those who catch the virus. One would expect that to ease the pressure on the NHS, but that is not happening. I would like an explanation of why the strategic framework is flawed. Its indicators are not in alignment with each other. Why has the NHS not built up the capacity to be able to cope? Why have the new treatments not helped to ease the pressure? We need clarity on those important questions. There are big questions about why we are moving council areas into level 4 when the rate of infection in most of them is going down.

As Liberals, we prefer encouragement, rather than the heavy hand of the law. The new travel ban makes us concerned, but we appreciate the police’s light-touch approach to the pandemic laws and the indication that they will adopt the same approach to the travel restrictions.

Putting restrictions in law makes it clear what people are expected to do, so I am concerned about the message that we would send if we supported Labour’s amendment. We have not proposed a travel ban in law, but rejecting it might indicate that people can travel freely around the country again. It is important to recognise that how we vote in the Parliament sends a message across the country. We will not vote for Labour’s amendment. [Interruption.] I will not take an intervention just now. However, we want a clear indication that the travel ban will come to an end on 11 December.

We also need urgent clarity on international travel. I heard what the minister said earlier, but I would like more detail, perhaps in the summing-up speech. It is a nonsense to ban travel to airports, but permit travel abroad. That really matters. Despite the advice on holidays, people have been permitted to go on them, and those with long-booked holidays will have no route to secure repayment from airlines unless that restriction is changed. That has been managed in England, so why can we not manage it here?

From Friday, most people here will be in lockdown, just like people in England. Unlike others, I will not misuse the words of Dr Nabarro of the World Health Organization. He said:

“We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus. The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganise, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.”

We in Scotland have had that time already. In the summer we had a respite as a result of the additional sacrifices that people in this country made. However, we did not use that time well. The Government opposed—I use that word wisely—mass asymptomatic testing. It believed that a negative test would make people relax and ignore the rules, so it felt no need to accelerate the growth of testing and lab capacity.

Thankfully, that belief now seems to have been abandoned. The Government has accepted the value of mass asymptomatic testing and is rushing to catch up. For many weeks, the tracing programme was operating well below the level that the Government believed that it was, and the quarantine spot checks were not meeting the target, so the virus outbreaks were not snuffed out before they could spread, and we are now in a second wave.

Although I have made some criticisms today, I have sought to help and support the Government throughout the pandemic. A national emergency demands that. However, I am concerned that the measures outlined this week might not work and that the infection rates will not go down sufficiently to ease the pressure on the NHS. We might be shutting down parts of the economy and society for which we have little evidence that they are causing the spread. Test and protect cannot tell us where the spread is coming from. To a certain extent, we are working in the dark.

The First Minister has told us that too many people are ignoring the advice and are meeting inside homes. I have one suggestion. I want the Government to consider whether regulated pubs, cafes and restaurants may be safer places to meet in than unregulated homes. If people are going to meet, let us make it as safe as possible for them to do so. I want the Government to take that suggestion away and consider it with its advisers.

I make that suggestion in line with the cautious approach that I have adopted throughout the pandemic. I want people to be safe. Five thousand deaths—that is among the highest death rates in the world—are a sobering reminder of how important the issue is.

I will support the Government motion, but not the Labour amendment. I hope that the Government has listened carefully to what I have said on behalf of the Liberal Democrats.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
Before I call the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Local Government, Aileen Campbell, to open our debate on Covid-19, I thought that it would be helpful...
The Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Local Government (Aileen Campbell) SNP
Today’s debate offers an opportunity for Parliament to debate the outcome of the second review of Scotland’s strategic framework on Covid-19. As Parliament k...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I am sure that the cabinet secretary will soon come to the issue of travel restrictions. I received notifications today from TUI, the travel agents and touri...
Aileen Campbell SNP
I know and recognise how difficult the issue is. We encourage people to ensure that they discuss the matter with whoever they bought their package from. We h...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary explain why it is fair that people living in Parkhead in Glasgow who have a holiday booked to see their loved ones cannot travel d...
Aileen Campbell SNP
Essential travel is permitted, and there is a list of exceptions to the restrictions. I assume that Pauline McNeill is talking about travel to the airport. T...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The example in Willie Rennie’s question was about people going to the Canary Islands on holiday. If someone is out there already and is not due to return unt...
Aileen Campbell SNP
They need to come home and, if wherever they have come from has incurred a period of quarantine, to stay at home and stay safe. Again, we will set out all th...
Donald Cameron (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I will make the position of the Conservatives clear at the outset: we accept the general thrust of the new restrictions, regrettable as they are. However, as...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Given that the travel ban that criminalises people comes into force tomorrow night at 6 o’clock, could Donald Cameron tell us what other opportunity the Parl...
Donald Cameron Con
As I said, the Parliament agreed the process of emergency legislation in spring this year. Two committees of Parliament will have the opportunity to interrog...
Richard Leonard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Tomorrow marks eight months to the day since the First Minister told the people of Scotland that we were facing “the biggest challenge of our lifetimes”. E...
Aileen Campbell SNP
Members will be aware that we routinely publish quite a lot of information. As a genuine question, in among all the evidence and data that we publish and the...
Richard Leonard Lab
I do not want just data; I want proof and compelling evidence that will persuade people that the measures that the Government is imposing are having the effe...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
I commend Richard Leonard, because in the 21 years since I was first elected to the Parliament I have never seen an amendment from another party that so well...
Richard Leonard Lab
I welcome Mr Rumbles’s support and agree with him that the arguments go beyond party politics. Let me reflect on what happened earlier this week, when the C...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I already thought that I was likely to vote against the Labour amendment and, after hearing Richard Leonard’s speech, I am now more convinced of that. I thi...
Elaine Smith Lab
Labour would support and agree with much of what Patrick Harvie has said. However, does he understand that, the minute we make something criminal, with crimi...
Patrick Harvie Green
I do not expect that to happen and I do not agree that making the law in itself criminalises people. It is how the law is applied that is important, and I th...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
Most of the indicators in the new level 4 council areas have not been breached. In fact, all but one has infection rates in decline. The infection rates and ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the open debate. We do not have a lot of time, so I encourage all members to keep to their four minutes, including interventions, where possible. ...
Gillian Martin (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) SNP
I thank everyone in Aberdeenshire East, who, through their sacrifices and adherence to the protective measures that the Government has set out, have ensured ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I will focus my remarks on Donald Cameron’s amendment and his call for the Scottish Government to “provide immediate clarification with respect to new trave...
Aileen Campbell SNP
I am curious to know whether the member has seen the postcode checker, which enables people to put in the postcode for where they live and to then find out w...
Liam Kerr Con
Absolutely. However, I think the point being made is that it is about where people are and about travel. The minister talked about where people live, but we ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Tom Arthur, to be followed by Pauline McNeill. I remind members that they have four minutes only. 17:25
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
My Renfrewshire South constituency overlaps Renfrewshire Council and East Renfrewshire Council areas, which in about 24 hours will move into level 4. In that...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I do not believe that we have had a straightforward outline of how Glasgow arrived at level 4 lockdown, and how Covid-19 is not under control in the central ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure and Connectivity (Michael Matheson) SNP
Will the member give way?
Pauline McNeill Lab
Of course I will.