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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 18 November 2020

18 Nov 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Safe Schools
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

As we face the crisis that is caused by the Covid pandemic, it is incumbent on us to continue to question and challenge, and to continue to ask ourselves whether our approach is the very best that we can take. In some ways, the debate has been best encapsulated by the combination of Ross Greer’s and Jamie Greene’s opening speeches.

Of course, we must thank teachers and all the other staff in our schools for the efforts that they have undertaken. They are absolutely admirable, and they are a credit to themselves and our children.

However, we must also ensure that we are absolutely minimising the undoubted damage that is occurring to our children’s education. That is the frame of reference for this debate, and that is right and proper.

I will try to cover a number of key themes, although I do not have much time.

On transparency, like Iain Gray, I welcome the paper that the Government has released. I have had criticisms of the Government’s information in the past, but that paper is well referenced and useful. However, we must take care, because an article in The Lancet, which is the key article that that paper uses to point to the lack of evidence on transmission, admits that there is a dearth of evidence and that much of the evidence that it relies on is from studies of middle east respiratory syndrome, severe acute respiratory syndrome and the flu.

I agree with the conclusions, but we must have clarity, because, as Monica Lennon and others have pointed out, with rising absences from schools, there are a growing number of questions out there. Therefore, we must be calm and clear in the way that we use the information, if we are to maintain trust in the advice that is provided. That is absolutely key.

It is clear that there are questions around the mitigation steps that have been taken. Those questions have been well outlined by a number of members. Patrick Harvie made a very useful contribution in which he questioned the consistency in how mitigation steps have been implemented.

Clare Adamson is right that it is up to local authorities to implement measures, but the key issue that they face is that, before the crisis, many schools lacked the support staff that they needed to allow teachers to do anything other than teach. If that was a problem before the crisis, it is absolutely a problem during it. We are asking our teachers not just to teach our pupils, but to keep them safe and to implement track and trace—Ross Greer referred to that—and many other public safety measures. Schools simply need more staff, including cleaners and classroom assistants.

On an increase in teacher numbers, there are questions about whether teachers have arrived in schools. That does not even bring us back to the number of teachers that we had in 2007. We have to ask those questions.

We must also ensure that there is investment in school buildings and other mitigation steps that we have seen in other countries. Ultimately, that should be our benchmark. Other countries have, as a result of experience of SARS in Asia or, simply, better planning, implemented more effective steps. Iain Gray outlined the investment in ventilation in Germany. We must challenge ourselves to do better and to meet the standards and examples of the very best leading countries.

Perhaps testing is ultimately the most important issue. Liz Smith made that case very well. Until there is regular testing of asymptomatic individuals in schools so that we get an accurate picture of what is going on, questions will continue to be asked—not least because of the issues that Ross Greer outlined. There will be questions because of stories and issues that are raised.

I will sum up by asking the Government some simple questions. Can it improve the clarity and robustness of its scientific briefings? Can we continue to question and improve the mitigation steps, as well as the investments in our buildings and structures? Can there be additional staff so that there are smaller class sizes, and can there be more people to clean our school buildings? Can we roll out regular asymptomatic testing, using lateral flow tests, within our school estate? Ultimately, answers to those questions will enable people to have trust in the Government’s response.

15:43  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23385, in the name of Ross Greer, on safe schools. 14:51
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I know that I speak on behalf of us all when I say thank you to every teacher, member of school staff, pupil, parent and carer for their efforts over the pas...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
I welcome the debate. I whole-heartedly agree with the point in the motion that “education is best delivered in the classroom”. I also agree that keeping o...
Ross Greer Green
On the cabinet secretary’s point about data suggesting that there is no significant transmission between pupils in schools, will he respond to the issues tha...
John Swinney SNP
The point that I was making was about the evidence that has emerged from the PCR—polymerase chain reaction—testing that is undertaken on children. It is indi...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank Ross Greer for using his party’s time for this debate. We disagree on many things, but on education we share a passion to get it right for every chil...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I support the motion and I associate myself with the remarks of Ross Greer and the Deputy First Minister, in particular, about the efforts of local authoriti...
John Swinney SNP
I want to make explicit that the papers were prepared to inform the debate and not because the debate was happening; the statistics were pre-scheduled to be ...
Iain Gray Lab
I take that point and accept it absolutely. However, concerns about whether schools should remain open are not new and it would have been helpful if the stat...
Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I, too, echo what others have said about the hard work of teachers, pupils and local authorities in the recent challenging months. I am pleased that safe sch...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We now move to the open debate. 15:19
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
Like many members, I represent constituents who will be moved into level 4 restrictions from Friday. The prevalence of Covid in Glasgow remains, as the First...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I apologise for the fact that we were not able to see Patrick Harvie, although we certainly heard him. 15:22
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
I thank Ross Greer for securing the debate and I echo his and other members’ praise for the efforts of our teachers and our school communities at this time. ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member give way?
Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
Will Clare Adamson take an intervention?
Clare Adamson SNP
I will take an intervention from Mr Halcro Johnston.
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
Is Clare Adamson absolutely sure that there are not children and young people who have been missing out at school because they do not have the technology or ...
Clare Adamson SNP
I think that the issue is about local implementation. I have examples from one local authority area, where one school is ensuring that home support, digital ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
When future generations come to study the Covid era, I am certain that two things will stand out: first, the extraordinarily difficult decisions that all Gov...
Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am grateful to Ross Greer and the Scottish Greens for lodging the motion, which we support. I put on the record my deep gratitude to pupils, staff and pare...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the Education and Skills Committee, I am pleased to be able to speak in the debate, which is on such an important topic. There are points in ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
As we face the crisis that is caused by the Covid pandemic, it is incumbent on us to continue to question and challenge, and to continue to ask ourselves whe...
Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I welcome the recognition around the chamber that the pandemic has been difficult for pupils and teachers across our schools. It is right that we are able to...
John Swinney SNP
I agree with a lot of what has been discussed in the debate. I think that Mr Greer characterised it fairly when he said that there is not an awful lot of dif...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the cabinet secretary acknowledge that the ability to implement such measures comes down to schools having enough resources so that teachers are freed u...
John Swinney SNP
I do not think that that is a fair point: if a member of staff is judged clinically not fit to be at school, they should not be at school, and there should b...
Johann Lamont Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
John Swinney SNP
Of course.
Johann Lamont Lab
I will take the cabinet secretary away from Twitter for once. My concern is about disadvantaged young people who are not engaging with education at all. Wha...