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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 04 November 2020

04 Nov 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints
Swinney, John SNP Perthshire North Watch on SPTV

If Mr Johnson will forgive me, I need to make progress. I have a lot of ground to cover.

It is advice that informs that decision. It is the decision itself that the Government is accountable for, and in the case at the centre of this debate—the handling of the judicial review—the Scottish Government’s decision making, or, in essence, its legal position in the case, is set out in the pleadings in the case, informed by the legal advice that we took. Those pleadings have already been shared with the committee, including various changes and developments that took place during the handling of the case, as set out in a detailed timeline document that has, again, been made available to the committee.

That is one aspect of the information that the Scottish Government has provided to the committee in making available the documentation that the committee has requested. Maintaining legal professional privilege has not prevented the Government from providing the committee with more than 1,000 pages of relevant material. Scottish Government witnesses have provided more than 14 hours of oral evidence to date. We are working to provide more material to the committee and have set out our intention to initiate legal proceedings seeking to allow the release of further documents that we believe the committee should receive.

The First Minister and I have both personally provided written evidence and the First Minister has made clear her willingness to attend the committee in person when asked. Our co-operation has also included the Lord Advocate making himself available to provide oral evidence to the committee on relevant matters. He has already attended committee on 8 September and will attend again next week.

The Lord Advocate gave detailed answers at committee on the issues at the heart of this debate. He explained:

“It is really important to say that the assertion of legal professional privilege is routine. Its waiver is exceptionally rare, and it happens against the background of very strong reasons of public policy”—

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23218, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints. 14:53
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, this afternoon the Scottish Conservatives are dividing our debating time into two parts. Shortly, my colleague Donald Cameron will lead a ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
Scots law provides that any person who seeks legal advice has the benefit of confidential communications with their lawyer. That is an important and well-est...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Johnson will forgive me, I need to make progress. I have a lot of ground to cover. It is advice that informs that decision. It is the decision itself ...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell will allow me to finish the quote, I will give way to him. The Lord Advocate said: “Its waiver is exceptionally rare, and it happens against ...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does the Deputy First Minister honestly think that in this case, the circumstances are “routine”? Does he not think that it is exactly the sort of exception ...
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell looks at examples of where the Government has waived legal professional privilege, he will see that they have been major issues of public polic...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
No—I am answering the member’s intervention. The point that the Lord Advocate made in the quote that I read out is that it is particularly relevant in a sit...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
I have to make further progress, I am afraid. The Government is frequently involved in litigation and decision making as part of normal good government. As ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I begin by quoting the words of the First Minister in the chamber on 17 January 2019, because it is worth reminding members of what she said. She stated: “T...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
On 6 February 2019, Parliament voted to establish a committee to inquire into the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints in the light of all...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in support of the Conservative motion. I will come to the substance of the legal advice in a moment. Before I do, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We do not have a lot of time for the debate, so I urge members to keep their remarks to the four minutes that they have been allocated. 15:21
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
On 8 January 2019, Lord Pentland announced that the Scottish Government had conceded the former First Minister Alex Salmond’s petition for judicial review on...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
The motion asks Parliament to call “on the Scottish Government to publish all the legal advice it received regarding” a judicial review. In my speech I wil...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
This is an important debate because, undoubtedly, the circumstances surrounding it are some of the most troubling issues that we have dealt with since devolu...
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
In this short debate of one hour and 10 minutes—the Tories have opted to use only half of their Opposition time for it—I wish to focus on the issue of legal ...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I very much welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate. It is right that responding to the Covid-19 pandemic has been at the forefront of our ...
Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) SNP
For me, today has been a tale of two Parliaments. The first, this morning, was a meeting of the COVID-19 Committee, on which I serve, in which we scrutinised...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the closing speeches. 15:46
Jackie Baillie Lab
The debate has been short but illuminating. The Opposition parties across the chamber are of one mind: they believe that the Scottish Government should provi...
John Swinney SNP
Jackie Baillie said that she would not rehearse the business of the committee and the substance of the inquiry. Some members have raised elements of the subs...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does Mr Swinney not recognise that the argument that he is making makes it even more compelling that the judicial review legal advice, which can be published...
John Swinney SNP
I am coming on to that point, which is about the material that the committee already has. The Government has already provided the committee with the pleading...
Alex Cole-Hamilton LD
I will try another way of approaching the issue. I understand that Mr Swinney is not going to release the legal advice, but given the decisions that the Gove...
John Swinney SNP
I remind Alex Cole-Hamilton what I said at the outset: I will not get into the substance of any aspect of the processes in question, because it is not approp...