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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 04 November 2020

04 Nov 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints

The debate has been short but illuminating. The Opposition parties across the chamber are of one mind: they believe that the Scottish Government should provide the committee with its legal advice in relation to the judicial review of the harassment policy. SNP members on the committee agree, too. The remit for the committee was agreed by the Parliament as a whole. This is about the credibility of the Parliament and the accountability of the Scottish Government.

The committee has a job to do and, to be blunt, the Scottish Government is obstructing its work. Whether it is withholding information or the sometimes apparently serial memory loss on the part of senior civil servants, it amounts to the same thing: a lack of co-operation with the committee. Some people, although I am not one of them, might say that it is a deliberate lack of co-operation.

The First Minister’s commitment was made on behalf of the Scottish Government, which she leads. I appreciate that she has recused herself, as she will be a witness to the committee, but that is not an excuse for the Scottish Government not to fulfil that promise. The Deputy First Minister can release the legal advice if he chooses to do so. Andy Wightman, in an excellent speech, explained exactly why that is the case. The issue is not that the Scottish Government cannot tell us; it is that the Scottish Government will not tell us.

I will give one example of the obstruction that we have faced. Early letters from the Deputy First Minister about the judicial review said that the Scottish Government could not share any information, as it was a matter for the Court of Session. That was simply not true. The Government could have shared with the committee the information that it had presented to the court. However, it took the attendance of the Lord Advocate, giving evidence under oath, and a letter from the committee to the Court of Session to establish that that was the case.

We have heard that an army of lawyers was involved for the Scottish Government—at least 10 to 12 of them—so I am not persuaded that the Deputy First Minister did not understand that he could share that information. If it was not ignorance that prevented the information from being shared, what on earth was it? Why did it take the presence of the Lord Advocate at the committee, under oath, to stop the nonsense coming from the Scottish Government?

I will not rehearse the evidence that the committee has received. Suffice it to say that I have genuine concerns about the blurring between the party and the state, but that is for another day. The committee has been told that the legal advice was taken throughout the judicial review process. An FOI request from September 2019 revealed that there were 17 meetings with counsel between 23 August and 7 January. The counsel remained the same throughout, so there would have been consistency in their thinking and their advice.

Just yesterday, the Scottish Government’s lawyer in charge agreed that even when the prospects of success were not good, the Government might still decide to proceed. That might be questionable, but we need to have the legal advice to understand that. When the prospects of success nosedived after the role of the investigating officer was revealed, why did it take the Scottish Government almost three months to concede the case? Having the legal advice provided will help to address those fundamental points in relation to the judicial review.

Of course, the Scottish Government has form. We are used to not getting information through FOI requests—we are used to that being withheld. Now the Government is withholding information from the committee; it even tried to withhold information from the Court of Session until it was forced to produce it. It is very much a case of secret Scotland with this Government.

It is time for the Scottish Government to end the secrecy and give the committee the legal advice or tell the people of Scotland what it has to hide.

15:51  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23218, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints. 14:53
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, this afternoon the Scottish Conservatives are dividing our debating time into two parts. Shortly, my colleague Donald Cameron will lead a ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
Scots law provides that any person who seeks legal advice has the benefit of confidential communications with their lawyer. That is an important and well-est...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Johnson will forgive me, I need to make progress. I have a lot of ground to cover. It is advice that informs that decision. It is the decision itself ...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell will allow me to finish the quote, I will give way to him. The Lord Advocate said: “Its waiver is exceptionally rare, and it happens against ...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does the Deputy First Minister honestly think that in this case, the circumstances are “routine”? Does he not think that it is exactly the sort of exception ...
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell looks at examples of where the Government has waived legal professional privilege, he will see that they have been major issues of public polic...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
No—I am answering the member’s intervention. The point that the Lord Advocate made in the quote that I read out is that it is particularly relevant in a sit...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
I have to make further progress, I am afraid. The Government is frequently involved in litigation and decision making as part of normal good government. As ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I begin by quoting the words of the First Minister in the chamber on 17 January 2019, because it is worth reminding members of what she said. She stated: “T...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
On 6 February 2019, Parliament voted to establish a committee to inquire into the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints in the light of all...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in support of the Conservative motion. I will come to the substance of the legal advice in a moment. Before I do, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We do not have a lot of time for the debate, so I urge members to keep their remarks to the four minutes that they have been allocated. 15:21
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
On 8 January 2019, Lord Pentland announced that the Scottish Government had conceded the former First Minister Alex Salmond’s petition for judicial review on...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
The motion asks Parliament to call “on the Scottish Government to publish all the legal advice it received regarding” a judicial review. In my speech I wil...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
This is an important debate because, undoubtedly, the circumstances surrounding it are some of the most troubling issues that we have dealt with since devolu...
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
In this short debate of one hour and 10 minutes—the Tories have opted to use only half of their Opposition time for it—I wish to focus on the issue of legal ...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I very much welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate. It is right that responding to the Covid-19 pandemic has been at the forefront of our ...
Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) SNP
For me, today has been a tale of two Parliaments. The first, this morning, was a meeting of the COVID-19 Committee, on which I serve, in which we scrutinised...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the closing speeches. 15:46
Jackie Baillie Lab
The debate has been short but illuminating. The Opposition parties across the chamber are of one mind: they believe that the Scottish Government should provi...
John Swinney SNP
Jackie Baillie said that she would not rehearse the business of the committee and the substance of the inquiry. Some members have raised elements of the subs...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does Mr Swinney not recognise that the argument that he is making makes it even more compelling that the judicial review legal advice, which can be published...
John Swinney SNP
I am coming on to that point, which is about the material that the committee already has. The Government has already provided the committee with the pleading...
Alex Cole-Hamilton LD
I will try another way of approaching the issue. I understand that Mr Swinney is not going to release the legal advice, but given the decisions that the Gove...
John Swinney SNP
I remind Alex Cole-Hamilton what I said at the outset: I will not get into the substance of any aspect of the processes in question, because it is not approp...