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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 04 November 2020

04 Nov 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints

In this short debate of one hour and 10 minutes—the Tories have opted to use only half of their Opposition time for it—I wish to focus on the issue of legal professional privilege. At this point, perhaps it would be prudent for me to refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests, from which they will note that I am a member of the Law Society of Scotland and hold a practising certificate, albeit that I do not currently practise.

At its heart, the motion concerns legal professional privilege so, as I have said, I will focus on that. It is a concept that is centuries old and is deemed essential to the operation of the legal system and the administration of justice. The principle also underpins the convention that legal advice that is provided to Governments is not published, so as to ensure that their decisions are informed by comprehensive and open legal advice that can be provided without fear or favour. The obverse of that would involve the risk that such advice could be skewed if publication were to be the norm. Therefore, the convention of not publishing legal advice has long been followed by Governments across these islands and in many other countries.

Of course, there have been a few exceptions to that. We have already heard about that happening in Scotland—in the main, in relation to judge-led inquiries. In recent times, there have also been two notable exceptions relating to the UK Government’s approach. The first concerned Tony Blair’s Labour Government’s publication in 2005 of the advice that it had received on the Iraq war; and the second was Theresa May’s Tory Government’s publication in 2018 of the advice that it had received on Brexit. Those exceptions involved what must be regarded as seismic foreign policy decisions: Labour’s Iraq war decision represented a monumental foreign policy disaster, and the Tories’ Brexit shambles an acute case of economic self-harm. Given the seismic nature of those issues, I contend that publication of legal advice in those particular circumstances should set no precedent, as the exceptional approach that was taken should be understood very much in context.

Incidentally, it is perhaps worth pointing out that, notwithstanding—[Interruption.]—I have only four minutes, so I will not take an intervention. Notwithstanding the truly exceptional circumstances justifying the publication of the advice on Brexit, they were nonetheless not sufficient to garner the support of Scottish Tory MPs, and David Mundell, Douglas Ross and others resisted publication at that time. Further, I do not recall any Tory member of the Scottish Parliament raising an eyebrow about that in this chamber then or calling for publication of that legal advice.

As far as the ministerial code and the public interest test here in Scotland are concerned, and taking into account the operation of the convention, I submit that it is by no means clear that, thus far in the debate, a compelling case has been made for waiving professional legal privilege.

As we have heard, an inquiry is concurrently being held by a committee of the Scottish Parliament, to which I understand that the Lord Advocate has already given oral evidence and to which he could be recalled if that were felt to be necessary and appropriate.

In 21st century Scotland, there might indeed be merit in proceeding with a jurisprudential debate on the reach of the principle of legal professional privilege—in particular, as far as it concerns the role that it plays in the giving of legal advice to Governments. However, it is surely important that such a debate should be conducted in a measured, objective and coherent fashion, and not simply fitted around an individual case—especially in a 70-minute parliamentary debate. In fact, the better forum could be the Scottish Law Commission, which brings great weight to the legal issues on which it deliberates.

For the foregoing reasons, I will not support the motion.

15:39  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23218, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints. 14:53
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, this afternoon the Scottish Conservatives are dividing our debating time into two parts. Shortly, my colleague Donald Cameron will lead a ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
Scots law provides that any person who seeks legal advice has the benefit of confidential communications with their lawyer. That is an important and well-est...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Johnson will forgive me, I need to make progress. I have a lot of ground to cover. It is advice that informs that decision. It is the decision itself ...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell will allow me to finish the quote, I will give way to him. The Lord Advocate said: “Its waiver is exceptionally rare, and it happens against ...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does the Deputy First Minister honestly think that in this case, the circumstances are “routine”? Does he not think that it is exactly the sort of exception ...
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell looks at examples of where the Government has waived legal professional privilege, he will see that they have been major issues of public polic...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
No—I am answering the member’s intervention. The point that the Lord Advocate made in the quote that I read out is that it is particularly relevant in a sit...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
I have to make further progress, I am afraid. The Government is frequently involved in litigation and decision making as part of normal good government. As ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I begin by quoting the words of the First Minister in the chamber on 17 January 2019, because it is worth reminding members of what she said. She stated: “T...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
On 6 February 2019, Parliament voted to establish a committee to inquire into the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints in the light of all...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in support of the Conservative motion. I will come to the substance of the legal advice in a moment. Before I do, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We do not have a lot of time for the debate, so I urge members to keep their remarks to the four minutes that they have been allocated. 15:21
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
On 8 January 2019, Lord Pentland announced that the Scottish Government had conceded the former First Minister Alex Salmond’s petition for judicial review on...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
The motion asks Parliament to call “on the Scottish Government to publish all the legal advice it received regarding” a judicial review. In my speech I wil...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
This is an important debate because, undoubtedly, the circumstances surrounding it are some of the most troubling issues that we have dealt with since devolu...
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
In this short debate of one hour and 10 minutes—the Tories have opted to use only half of their Opposition time for it—I wish to focus on the issue of legal ...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I very much welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate. It is right that responding to the Covid-19 pandemic has been at the forefront of our ...
Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) SNP
For me, today has been a tale of two Parliaments. The first, this morning, was a meeting of the COVID-19 Committee, on which I serve, in which we scrutinised...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the closing speeches. 15:46
Jackie Baillie Lab
The debate has been short but illuminating. The Opposition parties across the chamber are of one mind: they believe that the Scottish Government should provi...
John Swinney SNP
Jackie Baillie said that she would not rehearse the business of the committee and the substance of the inquiry. Some members have raised elements of the subs...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does Mr Swinney not recognise that the argument that he is making makes it even more compelling that the judicial review legal advice, which can be published...
John Swinney SNP
I am coming on to that point, which is about the material that the committee already has. The Government has already provided the committee with the pleading...
Alex Cole-Hamilton LD
I will try another way of approaching the issue. I understand that Mr Swinney is not going to release the legal advice, but given the decisions that the Gove...
John Swinney SNP
I remind Alex Cole-Hamilton what I said at the outset: I will not get into the substance of any aspect of the processes in question, because it is not approp...