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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 04 November 2020

04 Nov 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

This is an important debate because, undoubtedly, the circumstances surrounding it are some of the most troubling issues that we have dealt with since devolution and the creation of the Parliament.

As Jackie Baillie and Alex Cole-Hamilton set out, the complaints that are at the centre of the issue are of the most serious nature. As Murdo Fraser pointed out, serious questions have been asked publicly about how the Government arrived at its decisions, and about whether it was pursuing a particular agenda. As Andy Wightman pointed out, there are key questions about how the Government used the advice that was made available to it. Of course, there is also the question of the more than half a million pounds that the circumstances and decisions have cost the public purse.

It is with regret that I take exception to Bruce Crawford’s comments. He asked whether the test of exceptional circumstances had been met. I simply put it to him like this: if a former First Minister making accusations such as have been made of the existing First Minister does not constitute exceptional circumstances, I simply do not know what would.

This is a matter of collective concern, because the issue and the circumstances surrounding the Government’s decisions reflect not just on the Government, but on the Parliament, and on politics in Scotland as a whole. Ultimately, power is not vested in the Government; it is vested in Parliament, and we exercise that power on behalf of the Scottish people. It is through that sequence only that the Government exercises its power on our behalf and, ultimately, in the public interest. That is critical, and that is what is at question. Andy Wightman set out that point well.

We need to understand the appropriateness of the Government’s actions. The only way that we can do that is by seeing the legal advice, because there are critical questions to ask of the Government. Why did it continue to defend the judicial review? Did political judgment override legal assessment? If that occurred, the Government failed to act in the public interest. The only way that we can make that determination—the only way that we can judge whether political judgment overrode the advice that the Government received—is by seeing the legal advice. It is so important that we see it.

There is the critical matter of legal privilege. I understand the arguments that the Deputy First Minister made. Legal privilege is hugely important, if we believe in the rule of law and in individual rights. It is important that individuals are able to act in an informed way, so that they understand their options and can investigate them without prejudice. Indeed, organisations have the same private interest and enjoy the same legal privilege. In that regard, the Government does, indeed, have legal privilege. However, is that exclusively a private interest? The Government is different from an organisation or an individual because it acts on our behalf and in our interests.

It is absolutely right that the Government must be able to deliberate, decide and make judgments, but that assumes that it acts in good faith and using its best judgment. That has been called into question. Was such judgment exercised, or were other elements taken into consideration? On top of that, there are other issues, such as the policy being retrospective rather than prospective. The situation is very much akin to what happened with the release of legal advice in the trams inquiry and the blood inquiry.

Overall, the public interest has itself been challenged. A key question is whether the machinery of Government been used for political agendas and personal interests rather than those of the public. The only way that we can answer that is by seeing the legal advice. I urge the Government not to wait until this evening’s vote to act. It should release and publish the legal advice. It is morally required to do so, and it should not require a vote in Parliament to force it to do so.

15:34  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23218, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints. 14:53
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, this afternoon the Scottish Conservatives are dividing our debating time into two parts. Shortly, my colleague Donald Cameron will lead a ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
Scots law provides that any person who seeks legal advice has the benefit of confidential communications with their lawyer. That is an important and well-est...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Johnson will forgive me, I need to make progress. I have a lot of ground to cover. It is advice that informs that decision. It is the decision itself ...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell will allow me to finish the quote, I will give way to him. The Lord Advocate said: “Its waiver is exceptionally rare, and it happens against ...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does the Deputy First Minister honestly think that in this case, the circumstances are “routine”? Does he not think that it is exactly the sort of exception ...
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell looks at examples of where the Government has waived legal professional privilege, he will see that they have been major issues of public polic...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
No—I am answering the member’s intervention. The point that the Lord Advocate made in the quote that I read out is that it is particularly relevant in a sit...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
I have to make further progress, I am afraid. The Government is frequently involved in litigation and decision making as part of normal good government. As ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I begin by quoting the words of the First Minister in the chamber on 17 January 2019, because it is worth reminding members of what she said. She stated: “T...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
On 6 February 2019, Parliament voted to establish a committee to inquire into the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints in the light of all...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in support of the Conservative motion. I will come to the substance of the legal advice in a moment. Before I do, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We do not have a lot of time for the debate, so I urge members to keep their remarks to the four minutes that they have been allocated. 15:21
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
On 8 January 2019, Lord Pentland announced that the Scottish Government had conceded the former First Minister Alex Salmond’s petition for judicial review on...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
The motion asks Parliament to call “on the Scottish Government to publish all the legal advice it received regarding” a judicial review. In my speech I wil...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
This is an important debate because, undoubtedly, the circumstances surrounding it are some of the most troubling issues that we have dealt with since devolu...
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
In this short debate of one hour and 10 minutes—the Tories have opted to use only half of their Opposition time for it—I wish to focus on the issue of legal ...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I very much welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate. It is right that responding to the Covid-19 pandemic has been at the forefront of our ...
Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) SNP
For me, today has been a tale of two Parliaments. The first, this morning, was a meeting of the COVID-19 Committee, on which I serve, in which we scrutinised...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the closing speeches. 15:46
Jackie Baillie Lab
The debate has been short but illuminating. The Opposition parties across the chamber are of one mind: they believe that the Scottish Government should provi...
John Swinney SNP
Jackie Baillie said that she would not rehearse the business of the committee and the substance of the inquiry. Some members have raised elements of the subs...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does Mr Swinney not recognise that the argument that he is making makes it even more compelling that the judicial review legal advice, which can be published...
John Swinney SNP
I am coming on to that point, which is about the material that the committee already has. The Government has already provided the committee with the pleading...
Alex Cole-Hamilton LD
I will try another way of approaching the issue. I understand that Mr Swinney is not going to release the legal advice, but given the decisions that the Gove...
John Swinney SNP
I remind Alex Cole-Hamilton what I said at the outset: I will not get into the substance of any aspect of the processes in question, because it is not approp...