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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 04 November 2020

04 Nov 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints

On 6 February 2019, Parliament voted to establish a committee to inquire into the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints in the light of allegations made against former First Minister Alex Salmond, which led to the judicial review that was conceded by the Scottish ministers at a cost of more than £500,000. The point of the inquiry is to establish what exactly happened and, as a result, to ensure that the procedures are fit for the future.

As we have heard, the committee has asked on a number of occasions for the legal advice that is referred to in the motion, but the Government has refused to hand it over. I acknowledge the Deputy First Minister’s point that ministers do not, as a rule, publish legal advice. Doing so, it is argued, would compromise the requirement for frank and independent advice. If the providers of such advice knew that it could be released at a later date, such frankness could be compromised to the detriment of good government. In recent years, the Government has refused to publish legal advice on the legality of a second independence referendum without a section 30 order, and it has refused, in response to requests from the Law Society of Scotland, to publish its legal advice in relation to the UK Withdrawal from the European Union (Continuity) (Scotland) Bill.

However, legal advice can be published if the public interest requires it, as Murdo Fraser mentioned. Sections 21 and 28 of the Inquiries Act 2005 give powers to the chair of any public inquiry to require evidence and documents to be produced, including legal advice. Under the freedom of information regime, legally privileged information is a statutory exception, but the Scottish Information Commissioner can order disclosure when there is a compelling public interest for it. Given that there has been a freedom of information request for the information, the commissioner may yet do so. As was set out in the letter of 7 September from Mr Swinney to the committee, paragraph 2.40 of the Scottish ministerial code makes it clear that disclosure can be made

“If, in exceptional circumstances, Ministers feel that the balance of public interest lies in disclosing either the source or the contents of legal advice on a particular matter”.

The Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints is not a public inquiry, but it is a special committee of Parliament, established by a resolution of Parliament to inquire into specific matters of public interest in relation to an apparent serious failing of Government. The idea that legal professional privilege always applies is wrong. A public inquiry can overrule it, it can be waived under FOI and, if ministers consider it appropriate, they can waive it under the Scottish ministerial code. The committee’s letter of 30 September 2020 to John Swinney, which references the Deputy First Minister’s 7 September letter to the committee, states that

“the committee notes that the Scottish ministers have, on previous occasions, chosen to waive legal privilege. It did not impose a restriction notice on the disclosure of legal advice to the Scottish child abuse inquiry or the (UK) infected blood inquiry as well as limited disclosure in the trams inquiry.”

I repeat that it is possible to waive legal professional privilege when the public interest demands it.

The only real question that the Scottish Government and Parliament face is whether it is in the public interest to disclose the legal advice. The Government has claimed that, in its view, it is not. However, the Parliament is invited today to, in effect, decide whether the release of that advice is in the public interest. I submit that this democratically elected Parliament is a better barometer of the public interest than the Government, which is an interested party in the inquiry.

Scottish Greens believe that the release of legal advice is in the public interest, since the whole point of the committee’s work is to consider the Government’s handling of complaints under the complaints procedure—the very substance of the judicial review and thus the reason why the legal advice plays a central role.

The Deputy First Minister said that “ministers make decisions”, but assessment and critical scrutiny of that decision making cannot be done in the absence of the advice that informs it. The committee has, unanimously, asked the Government for that advice, and MSPs from every party in the Parliament have agreed that the committee needs to see it.

The committee serves the Parliament, so this evening I will be particularly interested in how SNP backbenchers vote. Will they stand up for their parliamentary colleagues on the committee and join all other parties in supporting it in its endeavours, or will they defy their parliamentary colleagues and side with the Government—an interested party that refuses to release the advice?

15:17  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23218, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints. 14:53
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, this afternoon the Scottish Conservatives are dividing our debating time into two parts. Shortly, my colleague Donald Cameron will lead a ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
Scots law provides that any person who seeks legal advice has the benefit of confidential communications with their lawyer. That is an important and well-est...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Johnson will forgive me, I need to make progress. I have a lot of ground to cover. It is advice that informs that decision. It is the decision itself ...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell will allow me to finish the quote, I will give way to him. The Lord Advocate said: “Its waiver is exceptionally rare, and it happens against ...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does the Deputy First Minister honestly think that in this case, the circumstances are “routine”? Does he not think that it is exactly the sort of exception ...
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell looks at examples of where the Government has waived legal professional privilege, he will see that they have been major issues of public polic...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
No—I am answering the member’s intervention. The point that the Lord Advocate made in the quote that I read out is that it is particularly relevant in a sit...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
I have to make further progress, I am afraid. The Government is frequently involved in litigation and decision making as part of normal good government. As ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I begin by quoting the words of the First Minister in the chamber on 17 January 2019, because it is worth reminding members of what she said. She stated: “T...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
On 6 February 2019, Parliament voted to establish a committee to inquire into the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints in the light of all...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in support of the Conservative motion. I will come to the substance of the legal advice in a moment. Before I do, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We do not have a lot of time for the debate, so I urge members to keep their remarks to the four minutes that they have been allocated. 15:21
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
On 8 January 2019, Lord Pentland announced that the Scottish Government had conceded the former First Minister Alex Salmond’s petition for judicial review on...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
The motion asks Parliament to call “on the Scottish Government to publish all the legal advice it received regarding” a judicial review. In my speech I wil...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
This is an important debate because, undoubtedly, the circumstances surrounding it are some of the most troubling issues that we have dealt with since devolu...
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
In this short debate of one hour and 10 minutes—the Tories have opted to use only half of their Opposition time for it—I wish to focus on the issue of legal ...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I very much welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate. It is right that responding to the Covid-19 pandemic has been at the forefront of our ...
Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) SNP
For me, today has been a tale of two Parliaments. The first, this morning, was a meeting of the COVID-19 Committee, on which I serve, in which we scrutinised...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the closing speeches. 15:46
Jackie Baillie Lab
The debate has been short but illuminating. The Opposition parties across the chamber are of one mind: they believe that the Scottish Government should provi...
John Swinney SNP
Jackie Baillie said that she would not rehearse the business of the committee and the substance of the inquiry. Some members have raised elements of the subs...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does Mr Swinney not recognise that the argument that he is making makes it even more compelling that the judicial review legal advice, which can be published...
John Swinney SNP
I am coming on to that point, which is about the material that the committee already has. The Government has already provided the committee with the pleading...
Alex Cole-Hamilton LD
I will try another way of approaching the issue. I understand that Mr Swinney is not going to release the legal advice, but given the decisions that the Gove...
John Swinney SNP
I remind Alex Cole-Hamilton what I said at the outset: I will not get into the substance of any aspect of the processes in question, because it is not approp...