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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 04 November 2020

04 Nov 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints

I begin by quoting the words of the First Minister in the chamber on 17 January 2019, because it is worth reminding members of what she said. She stated:

“The inquiries will be able to request whatever material they want, and I undertake today that we will provide whatever material they request ... My commitment is that the Government and I will co-operate fully with it”.—[Official Report, 17 January 2019; c 14.]

Let us be clear: Nicola Sturgeon was speaking as the First Minister of the Scottish Government, not in a personal capacity, and there were no caveats to what she said. That means that the Government should be committed to openness and transparency, and it should be providing the committee with “whatever material they request”.

The Deputy First Minister is, however, reinterpreting what the First Minister said to mean something completely different. Contrary to what the Scottish Government says, the committee has had partial information; pages of white paper with no information on it at all because it has all been redacted; delayed information; and, in some cases, no information at all.

Information on complaint handling was supposed to be provided to the committee by the end of August. We are now in November and we are no clearer about when that information will be received. I would not object so much if the committee had been established yesterday or even last week, but it was established more than 18 months ago. It should, therefore, be no surprise to the Scottish Government that the committee would want that information.

The question of the judicial review is central to the committee’s remit—a remit that the Scottish National Party agreed with. Understanding the legal advice that was given to the Scottish Government is key to determining whether it pursued the judicial review appropriately or whether it wasted public money. Let us remember that £500,000 was given to Mr Salmond and his lawyers, which was on top of the cost of external counsel for the Scottish Government at £118,000, never mind the cost that we have discovered of a whole array of officials meeting daily in same cases—at least 10 to 12 of them lawyers—and another group meeting three times a week involving comms people, policy officials and special advisers. Then, of course, there were the 17 meetings with counsel. That is a huge investment of public money in just this one case.

There is, of course, precedent for providing the committee with legal advice that has been taken. Government legal advice was provided to the United Kingdom blood inquiry, the sexual abuse inquiry and the trams inquiry. Why is a parliamentary inquiry of less importance and status to the Scottish Government than a public inquiry or, indeed, a Government inquiry into trams?

We need to remember that this is about women who complained about experiencing harassment in the Scottish civil service. With all due respect, they are much more important than trams. They deserve the committee to do its job: to understand what went wrong and why they were failed. For those who come forward in the future, there needs to be trust in a process that is not subject to challenge. When the Scottish Government withholds important information from the committee, that lets down those women and other women in the future.

Despite repeated letters and requests, and despite the convener having put her foot down very publicly—I pay tribute to her for doing so—the Scottish Government continues to stick its fingers in its ears and refuses to provide the information. That is simply not good enough. I hope that, this evening, the Parliament votes for the release of the legal advice that was provided to the Scottish Government. If the Scottish Government ignores the will of the Parliament, we can only assume that it really does have something to hide.

15:12  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23218, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints. 14:53
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, this afternoon the Scottish Conservatives are dividing our debating time into two parts. Shortly, my colleague Donald Cameron will lead a ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
Scots law provides that any person who seeks legal advice has the benefit of confidential communications with their lawyer. That is an important and well-est...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Johnson will forgive me, I need to make progress. I have a lot of ground to cover. It is advice that informs that decision. It is the decision itself ...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell will allow me to finish the quote, I will give way to him. The Lord Advocate said: “Its waiver is exceptionally rare, and it happens against ...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does the Deputy First Minister honestly think that in this case, the circumstances are “routine”? Does he not think that it is exactly the sort of exception ...
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell looks at examples of where the Government has waived legal professional privilege, he will see that they have been major issues of public polic...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
No—I am answering the member’s intervention. The point that the Lord Advocate made in the quote that I read out is that it is particularly relevant in a sit...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
I have to make further progress, I am afraid. The Government is frequently involved in litigation and decision making as part of normal good government. As ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I begin by quoting the words of the First Minister in the chamber on 17 January 2019, because it is worth reminding members of what she said. She stated: “T...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
On 6 February 2019, Parliament voted to establish a committee to inquire into the Scottish Government’s handling of harassment complaints in the light of all...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in support of the Conservative motion. I will come to the substance of the legal advice in a moment. Before I do, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We do not have a lot of time for the debate, so I urge members to keep their remarks to the four minutes that they have been allocated. 15:21
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
On 8 January 2019, Lord Pentland announced that the Scottish Government had conceded the former First Minister Alex Salmond’s petition for judicial review on...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
The motion asks Parliament to call “on the Scottish Government to publish all the legal advice it received regarding” a judicial review. In my speech I wil...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
This is an important debate because, undoubtedly, the circumstances surrounding it are some of the most troubling issues that we have dealt with since devolu...
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
In this short debate of one hour and 10 minutes—the Tories have opted to use only half of their Opposition time for it—I wish to focus on the issue of legal ...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I very much welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate. It is right that responding to the Covid-19 pandemic has been at the forefront of our ...
Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) SNP
For me, today has been a tale of two Parliaments. The first, this morning, was a meeting of the COVID-19 Committee, on which I serve, in which we scrutinised...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the closing speeches. 15:46
Jackie Baillie Lab
The debate has been short but illuminating. The Opposition parties across the chamber are of one mind: they believe that the Scottish Government should provi...
John Swinney SNP
Jackie Baillie said that she would not rehearse the business of the committee and the substance of the inquiry. Some members have raised elements of the subs...
Oliver Mundell Con
Does Mr Swinney not recognise that the argument that he is making makes it even more compelling that the judicial review legal advice, which can be published...
John Swinney SNP
I am coming on to that point, which is about the material that the committee already has. The Government has already provided the committee with the pleading...
Alex Cole-Hamilton LD
I will try another way of approaching the issue. I understand that Mr Swinney is not going to release the legal advice, but given the decisions that the Gove...
John Swinney SNP
I remind Alex Cole-Hamilton what I said at the outset: I will not get into the substance of any aspect of the processes in question, because it is not approp...