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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 24 September 2020

24 Sep 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Protection of Workers (Retail and Age-restricted Goods and Services) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I, too, welcome the bill, and commend Daniel Johnson for his work to introduce it. The Scottish Greens support the general principles of the bill and will vote for it.

I am a member of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee. I thank fellow committee members, clerks, researchers and witnesses for their diligent work in scrutinising the bill.

I, too, agree with members who have commended the work of retail workers, particularly those who, in the early months of the pandemic, were very much on the front line, meeting and greeting thousands of customers and seeking to police a safe environment, much of which is mandated by laws passed by the Parliament, the latest of which is, of course, the regulation on wearing face coverings. All that is in addition to the existing laws on, for example, age-restricted goods and services that retail workers are required to implement. I thank retail workers for their hard work and for doing their bit to keep us all safe.

As the convener of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee said, we heard disturbing testimony about the routine threats and abuse facing retail workers. I found equally disturbing the sense of helplessness around not knowing whether such abuse would investigated if reported. That is very troubling.

I do not want to get into the arguments about the scale or nature or character of the police response—the police rebutted some of those allegations. Nevertheless, it was clear from the evidence that relying on existing offences does not appear to be sufficient to curb on-going abuse.

I am not a fan of legislating to send messages—I think that Liam Kerr is not, either—but sometimes a new offence that is clearly targeted at abusive behaviour against a defined group of vulnerable people is the way forward. Daniel Johnson mentioned using the law to communicate. I think that it should be used in that way only sparingly, but I am persuaded that this situation is such a case. The mere existence of a notice on the front door of a shop, clearly articulating that the legislation applies, might do something to curb the worst excesses.

It is also fair to say that introducing a criminal offence is never an easy or a straightforward process—nor should it be. No doubt Daniel Johnson was aware of that when he took up the issue. As he will know, the committee spent some time grappling with the legal choices that had been made. In particular, we questioned the need for a new offence of obstructing or hindering a retail worker. We recognise concerns about the lack of a reasonableness defence to the threatening and abusive elements.

I am pleased to note that there is now a measure of agreement on the way forward on those matters. In particular, I am pleased that the “obstructing or hindering” element has been dropped. I was never persuaded that it was analogous to similar offences against emergency workers, where such behaviour can—and does—pose a threat to life.

I want to pay particular attention to the question of the aggravated offence that would apply where retail workers are enforcing a statutory age restriction. We agree with that proposal, but we also agree that such a charge should be available to be pled in any proceedings, brought against anyone who is alleged to have assaulted, threatened or abused a retail worker, regardless of whether it is brought for that offence, other statutory offences or under the common law. We are pleased to note that the Government has not closed the door on that possible amendment.

One of the most valuable observations to have arisen from the committee’s scrutiny was the question why we have not, as a matter of routine, created an aggravation in relation to all offences that we create in law whereby ordinary workers—whether in public transport, shops, entertainment venues or wherever—are then required to enforce it, such as the law on age restrictions, and who may, as a consequence, invite and receive abuse or violence.

I hope that the bill will be passed. I also hope that we will learn that important lesson, and will never again legislate to create offences that we expect to be implemented and enforced by ordinary workers without there being requisite protection in the law. Indeed, had we been more diligent about that, Daniel Johnson might not have needed to introduce the bill—or, at least, not in its current form.

The bill is a worthy and welcome one, and the Scottish Greens will support it at decision time.

16:07  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald) Lab
The next item of business is a stage 1 debate on motion S5M-22226, in the name of Daniel Johnson, on the Protection of Workers (Retail and Age-restricted Goo...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
This is quite a moment for me. Rising to speak in favour of my own bill brings with it a real sense of responsibility. I pay tribute to the various organisa...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I agree with all that the member has said so far. How does he feel about other workers who are not retail workers? Should they, too, be protected?
Daniel Johnson Lab
That is a useful intervention. Unfortunately, I am a solitary member and this is a member’s bill. There is a case for looking at the protection that all publ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Gordon Lindhurst will open the debate on behalf of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee. 15:37
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
As the saying goes, the customer is always right—it was the founders of Selfridges and the Ritz hotel who first popularised the phrase. Variations on the the...
The Minister for Community Safety (Ash Denham) SNP
I begin by recognising the important role that retail workers play in our local communities and the wider Scottish economy. During the Covid-19 outbreak, the...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
What is the minister’s view on the representation of the Association of Convenience Stores that the maximum penalty in the bill might not be strong enough?
Ash Denham SNP
The maximum penalty in the bill would be up to one year in prison and/or a fine of up to £10,000. We imagine that most offences will be captured under the bi...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I am pleased to contribute to this stage 1 debate on the bill. Daniel Johnson knows that I am sympathetic to what he is trying to achieve, as we have discuss...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I declare an interest as a member of USDAW and the GMB, which both represent retail workers. I am delighted to be able to speak in favour of the bill at sta...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
I, too, welcome the bill, and commend Daniel Johnson for his work to introduce it. The Scottish Greens support the general principles of the bill and will vo...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Presiding Officer, I offer my apologies—to you, to the Presiding Officer who was then in the chair, and to other members—that I was not here at the start of ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We move to the open debate, with speeches of absolutely no more than four minutes, please. I do not want to delay decision time or cut out speakers. 16:12
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee, I support the general principles of the bill. It is important that we have a full debate on the i...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
If everybody takes an extra five seconds, that makes us late. I call Alison Harris. 16:16
Alison Harris (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
That is a challenge—thank you, Presiding Officer. I, too, am a member of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee. Since Daniel Johnson introduced the bi...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
As others have done, I thank Daniel Johnson for navigating his member’s bill through stage 1. It is a robust bill, albeit that I know that some amendments ar...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I draw members’ attention to my declaration of interests. I am a member of USDAW and Unite. I am delighted to support Daniel Johnson’s bill and congratulate...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I thank Daniel Johnson for introducing his bill with the support of USDAW—the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers. It is on a matter that is impor...
Michelle Ballantyne (South Scotland) (Con) Con
Without doubt, the bill has a commendable purpose. As I was convener of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee during the stage 1 process, I would like ...
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate Daniel Johnson on and commend him for his hard work and absolute determination to introduce the bill and reach this stage. I also pay tr...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I have been a member of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee off and on. I am currently a substitute member, but I was not involved in the bill at all...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I join colleagues in congratulating Daniel Johnson on getting his bill to Parliament and this stage. It is clear that there are more discussion and negotiati...
Maurice Golden (West Scotland) (Con) Con
It goes without question that no one should face violent abuse or untoward behaviour at their place of work. Sadly, however, violence against shop workers is...
Ash Denham SNP
I thank all members who have contributed to this debate on an important issue. It is clear that we all agree that the abuse of a retail worker is totally una...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Daniel Johnson to close the debate. You can take us up to decision time. 16:58
Daniel Johnson Lab
I will do so gladly. I begin by thanking everyone who has taken part in the debate. It has been encouraging to hear such a broad range of views and to have ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Excuse me, Mr Johnson. I know that we have a half-empty chamber, but it is awfully noisy. Could members take care, please?
Daniel Johnson Lab
I know that those retail workers will be heartened to know that we take the issues that they face daily seriously. Before I go much further I would like t...