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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 09 September 2020

09 Sep 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill
Mackay, Rona SNP Strathkelvin and Bearsden Watch on SPTV

I welcome the opportunity to speak and to address the Conservative motion, which makes it clear that the Conservatives believe that hate crime should not be tolerated in a modern, inclusive nation like Scotland. That is agreed across the chamber.

The motion proposes working with stakeholders and organisations to draft alternative legislation. I am puzzled as to why that should be the route that we take. Why can we not make an immediate start by working with the Government to amend the existing bill?

The bill should be no different from any other. It should, and will, be subject to rigorous scrutiny and will be amended if there are concerns. This debate is the start of that process. I hope that it can be carried out in a respectful and meaningful way as we try to resolve some of the issues causing concern that we have heard about. We can do that only by working together, as the cabinet secretary has said, not by instigating sweeping measures to scrap the bill, as the Conservative motion calls for.

Figures show that the number of hate crimes is rising. Doing nothing cannot be an option in a modern and civilised nation such as Scotland. The bill will bring Scotland’s hate crime legislation into one statute, making the law easier to understand and more user friendly. It will implement the findings of the extensive and independent review of hate crime that was carried out by Lord Bracadale two years ago.

The final part of the Conservative motion asserts that the bill would “make free speech a crime”. I do not believe that that is the case. We will always be free to disagree. The bill does not seek to stifle rigorous debate or criticism or to inhibit freedom of expression, which is a human right. The bill does not say that an insult constitutes a hate crime.

Liam McArthur’s amendment calls on the Government to set out its plans to address concerns about free speech. I understand that the cabinet secretary has agreed to do that. We have heard concerns about the definition of stirring up hatred. The courts will decide whether someone has behaved in a threatening or abusive manner. That must be proved beyond reasonable doubt in court. If that definition requires improvement, that area can be focused on.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald) Lab
Yesterday evening, we had the return of members’ business. This afternoon, we have the return of Opposition business. The next item of business is a Conserv...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The debate is on a motion that opens by acknowledging that we, as a Parliament, must address the pernicious and vile hate crimes that remain all too prevalen...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I would like clarification, because I am obviously not on the Justice Committee. Did Liam Kerr not know the number of submissions that had been received befo...
Liam Kerr Con
I am not sure that we did know that. We do not know exactly how many submissions there are yet because of the sheer volume of them. I understand that a numbe...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Does the member agree that women’s organisations and equality organisations are supportive of a stand-alone offence?
Liam Kerr Con
Yes, I do. From what I have seen, there is a broad range of opinion on the matter, as I am sure Rona Mackay will agree. That is exactly my point. We need to ...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
Will Liam Kerr at least acknowledge that pro-equality organisations are largely arguing in favour of the provisions and that nobody has, as far as I am aware...
Liam Kerr Con
Of course I acknowledge that, because there are all their submissions. My point is very clear: those are all opinions and views that have been very carefully...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I remind members that time is not on our side this afternoon. I urge them to stick to their time as far as possible. 15:21
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I thank Liam Kerr and the Conservatives for lodging the motion, because it is always important that we talk about how we intend collectively to tackle hate c...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
The cabinet secretary is absolutely right—of course, those protections should be in place. The Parliament respects him as an individual for the way that he h...
Humza Yousaf SNP
The racial stirring-up offence has existed since 1986—for 34 years. In my reading of it—I am happy for anybody to challenge me—I have not been able to find a...
Patrick Harvie Green
As well as victims and potential victims of hate crime wanting that clarity, there is a good argument that everybody who fears that they might be accused of ...
Humza Yousaf SNP
There is certainly an argument to be made to that effect. I say to all members that I am not attempting to rush the parliamentary process. I think that the t...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Humza Yousaf SNP
I will give way to Liam Kerr in just a second. Before I do so, I note that Lord Bracadale said that the extension of the stirring-up offences would not “seri...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
The cabinet secretary is into the last minute of his speech, so please make this intervention very brief.
Liam Kerr Con
I shall be brief, Presiding Officer. Does the cabinet secretary not accept that he has made my point for me? There is a danger that part 2, the stirring-up o...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I do not accept that. There is enough time for us to give due attention to the stirring-up offences and to some of the other points that the member has legit...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
Hate crime has no place in a modern Scotland; it is simply wrong. No one should be subject to hatred. To subject people to hatred because of their race, gend...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I thank the member for giving way. Would she accept that, first, intent is extremely difficult to prove and that, secondly, there is room to improve the word...
Rhoda Grant Lab
I welcome John Mason’s intervention and I hope that that is a sign that Government back benchers are looking to amend the legislation. As I was saying, Lord...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
I will talk about the specifics of the amendment in my name, such as the “piecemeal” nature of “the development of hate crime law”, which has resulted in “...
Liam Kerr Con
That is a very important point. I hear what John Finnie says about Lord Bracadale’s report, but does he not accept that, in the implementation, there is a da...
John Finnie Green
I am grateful to the member for the intervention. I will come on to that, and I will cover the competing arguments on the issue. As far as we are concerned,...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I, too, welcome today’s debate on the Government’s Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. I thank Liam Kerr for enabling it, although I regret the Tori...
Patrick Harvie Green
I agree with the sentiment that the member has expressed. However, does he also accept that freedom of speech does not include the protection of threatening ...
Liam McArthur LD
That is a fair comment. However, we need to take seriously the concerns that have been expressed about the way that part 2 of the bill engages with those fre...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We now move to the open debate. 15:52
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak and to address the Conservative motion, which makes it clear that the Conservatives believe that hate crime should not be ...