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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 09 September 2020

09 Sep 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill
Kerr, Liam Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I am not sure that we did know that. We do not know exactly how many submissions there are yet because of the sheer volume of them. I understand that a number of the individual ones might be collated because they say similar things, so we do not know the exact volume of responses that we will be dealing with.

My point, which I will make more fully later, is that with such a heavy focus on part 2 of the bill, there is a serious danger that we will not do justice to the other parts of bill, or ensure that they receive effective scrutiny. I listened to the cabinet secretary on “Good Morning Scotland” this morning, when, perhaps inadvertently, he made my point for me. He was interrogated about the bill and ended up spending most of the time, for understandable reasons, talking about the chilling effect of the stirring-up offences in part 2. Later, I will make the point that that is a real risk that arises from the bill.

Given the context that I have set out—the burden on the committee—that weighs heavily on my mind, as I consider the bill. In the programme for government, the First Minister told us that

“we need to ensure that we have laws in this country that are capable of tackling hate crime because it is pernicious and horrible and we should have zero tolerance for it.”—[Official Report, 1 September 2020; c 46.]

She is right, so we must do all that we can to ensure that part 1, which deals with statutory aggravations, is not only

“capable of tackling hate crime”

but does so completely and unambiguously. That means subjecting the bill to intense scrutiny.

We need to ask whether simply consolidating is the right approach, and whether there would be merit in adopting the approach that has been adopted in New Zealand and Canada, which is concerned with forms of hatred that are based on any differences in characteristics.

We need to ask about the exclusion of sex. It is worth exploring the suggestion that that exclusion could be seen as sending the message that sex-based hatred is of less importance than that which is based on the other characteristics.

We need to ask whether the working group to consider an offence of misogynistic harassment is the best way to proceed on that because, for example, the Law Society of Scotland says that

“if the policy intention is for the list of characteristics to mirror those in the Equality Act 2010, there

is merit in including

”sex at this stage”,

and also to ask whether issues of misogyny and, indeed, misandry are too important to be left to secondary legislation. It has been suggested that substantive changes to criminal law must be included in primary legislation, through which the policy intentions can be fully and publicly debated.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald) Lab
Yesterday evening, we had the return of members’ business. This afternoon, we have the return of Opposition business. The next item of business is a Conserv...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The debate is on a motion that opens by acknowledging that we, as a Parliament, must address the pernicious and vile hate crimes that remain all too prevalen...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I would like clarification, because I am obviously not on the Justice Committee. Did Liam Kerr not know the number of submissions that had been received befo...
Liam Kerr Con
I am not sure that we did know that. We do not know exactly how many submissions there are yet because of the sheer volume of them. I understand that a numbe...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Does the member agree that women’s organisations and equality organisations are supportive of a stand-alone offence?
Liam Kerr Con
Yes, I do. From what I have seen, there is a broad range of opinion on the matter, as I am sure Rona Mackay will agree. That is exactly my point. We need to ...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
Will Liam Kerr at least acknowledge that pro-equality organisations are largely arguing in favour of the provisions and that nobody has, as far as I am aware...
Liam Kerr Con
Of course I acknowledge that, because there are all their submissions. My point is very clear: those are all opinions and views that have been very carefully...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I remind members that time is not on our side this afternoon. I urge them to stick to their time as far as possible. 15:21
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I thank Liam Kerr and the Conservatives for lodging the motion, because it is always important that we talk about how we intend collectively to tackle hate c...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
The cabinet secretary is absolutely right—of course, those protections should be in place. The Parliament respects him as an individual for the way that he h...
Humza Yousaf SNP
The racial stirring-up offence has existed since 1986—for 34 years. In my reading of it—I am happy for anybody to challenge me—I have not been able to find a...
Patrick Harvie Green
As well as victims and potential victims of hate crime wanting that clarity, there is a good argument that everybody who fears that they might be accused of ...
Humza Yousaf SNP
There is certainly an argument to be made to that effect. I say to all members that I am not attempting to rush the parliamentary process. I think that the t...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Humza Yousaf SNP
I will give way to Liam Kerr in just a second. Before I do so, I note that Lord Bracadale said that the extension of the stirring-up offences would not “seri...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
The cabinet secretary is into the last minute of his speech, so please make this intervention very brief.
Liam Kerr Con
I shall be brief, Presiding Officer. Does the cabinet secretary not accept that he has made my point for me? There is a danger that part 2, the stirring-up o...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I do not accept that. There is enough time for us to give due attention to the stirring-up offences and to some of the other points that the member has legit...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
Hate crime has no place in a modern Scotland; it is simply wrong. No one should be subject to hatred. To subject people to hatred because of their race, gend...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I thank the member for giving way. Would she accept that, first, intent is extremely difficult to prove and that, secondly, there is room to improve the word...
Rhoda Grant Lab
I welcome John Mason’s intervention and I hope that that is a sign that Government back benchers are looking to amend the legislation. As I was saying, Lord...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
I will talk about the specifics of the amendment in my name, such as the “piecemeal” nature of “the development of hate crime law”, which has resulted in “...
Liam Kerr Con
That is a very important point. I hear what John Finnie says about Lord Bracadale’s report, but does he not accept that, in the implementation, there is a da...
John Finnie Green
I am grateful to the member for the intervention. I will come on to that, and I will cover the competing arguments on the issue. As far as we are concerned,...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I, too, welcome today’s debate on the Government’s Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. I thank Liam Kerr for enabling it, although I regret the Tori...
Patrick Harvie Green
I agree with the sentiment that the member has expressed. However, does he also accept that freedom of speech does not include the protection of threatening ...
Liam McArthur LD
That is a fair comment. However, we need to take seriously the concerns that have been expressed about the way that part 2 of the bill engages with those fre...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We now move to the open debate. 15:52
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak and to address the Conservative motion, which makes it clear that the Conservatives believe that hate crime should not be ...