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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 08 September 2020

08 Sep 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Baroness Cumberlege Report
Neil, Alex SNP Airdrie and Shotts Watch on SPTV

There are very few issues that unite all five parties in the Parliament, but all three issues that the Cumberlege report addresses significantly add to that total. I, too, pay tribute to Lady Cumberlege and her team for a first-class report on all three areas that they looked into. However, I will, obviously, concentrate on the mesh issue.

I would like to make a number of points to take us forward.

I very much welcome the Scottish Government’s commitment to create a Scottish patient safety commissioner. That is long overdue, and the commissioner could be a huge advantage for people who find themselves in the position that the mesh women found themselves in many years ago. I will make three or four suggestions for consideration by the cabinet secretary and the Government in taking forward the consultation on the creation of that post.

First, to maximise the impact of and the confidence in such an commissioner, we should follow the example of the ombudsmen and make the position a parliamentary appointment, not a Scottish Government or NHS appointment. To maximise confidence, the person must not be seen to be part of the internal system, where the problems arise in the first place.

Secondly, the commissioner must have a wide remit. Their remit must not be so narrow that it becomes ineffectual.

Thirdly, the commissioner must have powers. One of the shortcomings of the ombudsmen is that, at the end of the day, their powers to implement their recommendations are extremely limited. The commissioner must have teeth and the power to prevent mistakes before they are made, let alone to rectify them once they have been made.

Finally, let us not make the same mistake that we made with the Scottish Human Rights Commission, whose commissioner is not allowed to investigate individual cases. I see the patient safety commissioner being able to look at generic issues to do with patient safety, as well as able to investigate individual cases.

If those powers, that remit and that status as a parliamentary commissioner are awarded, we will have a very strong patient safety commissioner, which is what we are looking for.

I very much agree with the cabinet secretary’s motion and Jackson Carlaw’s amendment, which proposes that the Parliament believes that the Scottish Government’s actions should

“include the early prospect of full transvaginal mesh removal surgery being undertaken by surgeons who enjoy the full confidence of the women affected, fully funded by the NHS.”

I think that the cabinet secretary has said that she agrees with that. That is fundamental to the basic principle that the patient comes first.

I welcome, as part of the mesh removal service, the individual case review whereby the patient, along with the relevant consultant or medics, takes a joint decision about the best course of action for them as an individual. No one is qualified to tell a patient what is best for them other than that patient in consultation with their doctor. [Interruption.] I will just finish my point.

Fundamentally, a significant number of women will have reached, or will reach, the conclusion that the only person on the planet who can safely remove their mesh is Dr Veronikis in America. However, we do not know how many women there are in that category, nor the individual complexities of their cases, and nor should we. I am not going to get into who said what when, why Dr Veronikis is not here in Scotland or why we are not there—primarily, I am not interested in that. I just want us to get to a position where, one way or another, the women who need their mesh removed by Dr Veronikis and see that as their only solution get access to his services. I believe that we owe it to those women to make sure that that happens.

The National Health Service in Scotland, and indeed the rest of the UK, has a tradition of sending people abroad for any procedure that cannot be carried out safely in our country. That is not new. What is probably new in this case is the potential scale at which we need to do that. As a Parliament, a Government and a society, we need to take it on the chin that we owe it to those women to foot the bill for those whose only solution is to go to the States and have their mesh removed by Dr Veronikis.

In the short term, that is the most important aspect of the debate, because we cannot allow the lives of those women to be destroyed by the failure to remove the mesh that probably should never have been inserted, and certainly not in the way it was, into their bodies in the first place.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-22635, in the name of Jeane Freeman, on the Baroness Cumberlege report. I invite all members who wish to ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport (Jeane Freeman) SNP
I start by welcoming the independent medicines and medical devices safety review—the Cumberlege report—and the opportunity in this Government debate to discu...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
How many mesh women have been involved in the co-production and co-design of that service?
Jeane Freeman SNP
I was about to move on to that. Through the involvement of the Health and Social Care Alliance, which was actively involved in canvassing women’s views and w...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Jeane Freeman SNP
I will in a moment. That will be in place as soon as those centres are established and will provide the opportunity to support advances in knowledge, techni...
Neil Findlay Lab
There is a multitude of questions about that service. The women themselves are asking those questions. They do not have faith in the way that the service has...
Jeane Freeman SNP
I accept the core of what Mr Findlay says about the importance of women having faith in the specialist service. Undoubtedly, one of the harms that has been d...
Donald Cameron (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I highlight my entry in the register of members’ interests on an interest in health technologies. I am grateful for the opportunity to open for the Scottish...
Neil Findlay Lab
Is it not an indication of the extent of the scandal that, when Alex Neil did implement a suspension, health boards continued to implant mesh in another 1,00...
Donald Cameron Con
I accept that there were issues around that. However, my point is that three MSPs from different political parties getting together to play a role in getting...
Jeane Freeman SNP
Does Mr Cameron acknowledge that, as far as the Scottish Government and I, as the cabinet secretary, are concerned, the offer to Dr Veronikis remains open? T...
Neil Findlay Lab
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I have a copy of a letter that was sent to the cabinet secretary six days ago. She has made no reference to it in he...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
Mr Findlay, I see from my list that you have been put forward to open for Labour in the debate, so that will be your opportunity to contribute to the debate ...
Donald Cameron Con
Scottish Mesh Survivors has been clear; it took a firm view about the services of Dr Veronikis and the need for him to take action. Our amendment makes it c...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I thank Baroness Cumberlege for her excellent report. It stands in stark contrast to the discredited sham of a review that was conducted in Scotland a few ye...
Jeane Freeman SNP
Does the member accept that, in response to those situations, we have established an independent case review that will, using senior clinicians from outwith ...
Neil Findlay Lab
No. I am asking whether members would trust a surgeon who had caused such devastation to their lives to be the person to remove the mesh. I certainly would n...
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green) Green
I know that all members will wish to pay tribute to all the people who have been affected by the failings in our health system as listed in the review. They ...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the member accept that, given that the pressure for a suspension has come from the women themselves, it would be wise to pause for the questions to be a...
Alison Johnstone Green
Yes—many questions regarding the service remain, and I have some sympathy with the suggestion that there should be a temporary suspension to ensure that ther...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I, too, recognise the work of Jackson Carlaw, Neil Findlay and Alex Neil on this issue. It has spanned my entire career in Parliament and has been awe inspir...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We will now move to the open debate. We are already way over time and later contributions may have to be curtailed. Meanwhile, speeches should be up to six m...
Alex Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) SNP
There are very few issues that unite all five parties in the Parliament, but all three issues that the Cumberlege report addresses significantly add to that ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Could you come to a close, please.
Alex Neil SNP
Finally, the patient decision aid should be used much more widely. Although MHRA reform is a reserved matter, all devolved governments should be heavily invo...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I begin by pointing members to my register of interests, specifically my interest in healthcare technologies. I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak ...
Jeane Freeman SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Whittle cannot take an intervention; he is just closing.
Brian Whittle Con
Six years is too long. If the Covid crisis has taught us anything, it is that if there is a will, moves can be made swiftly. It is time that the women who su...