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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 25 August 2020

25 Aug 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Children (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Regan, Ash SNP Edinburgh Eastern Watch on SPTV

The amendments in my name seek to strengthen the bill to ensure that the child’s views are heard in family court cases and children’s hearings. That is one of the key aims of the bill.

The amendments do two things. First, they reinstate the requirement that children must be given an opportunity to express their views in relevant proceedings. That requirement was included in the bill on introduction but was partially replaced at stage 2 with a requirement for a decision maker only to seek to make reasonable arrangements for a child to express his or her views.

Secondly, the amendments ensure that, when a child’s views are sought, the child’s preferred method of giving their views is to be used unless it is not reasonable to do so or the child has not expressed a preferred method of giving their views. The amendments cover family court cases and other proceedings under the Children (Scotland) Act 1995, children’s hearings, exclusion order proceedings and permanence and adoption cases.

I return to a point about exceptions that I made at stage 2. The Scottish Government believes that the majority of children are capable of forming a view on issues that affect them, but we recognise that that will not be true in every circumstance. For that reason, the bill provides that a decision maker is not required to seek or have regard to the view of a child if they are satisfied that the child is not capable of forming a view. However, the Government does not expect that exception to be used frequently.

There is also an exception to the requirement to take the child’s views in the child’s preferred manner, because it may not be feasible in some circumstances to use the child’s preferred method of giving their views. I would expect that exception also to be used infrequently.

I have recently published a paper on the ways in which a child can give their views, and I have committed, in the family justice modernisation strategy, to produce guidance for parties on going to court. That guidance will include information on the range of ways in which a child can give their views. We will need to reflect on how the strategy and the guidance are working in practice, so I welcome amendment 48, in the name of Liam McArthur, which requires a review of the impact of the act after five years. I ask members to agree to that amendment.

I am, however, unable to support amendment 35, in the name of Alex Cole-Hamilton. Amendment 35 would require a person who does not have parental rights and responsibilities but who is making a decision to safeguard the health, development or welfare of a child to seek and take account of the child’s views on maintaining personal relationships with family members. Even if the decision was unrelated to contact and residence—if it was about something like consent to a medical procedure—I cannot imagine that that is what the member intended. The bill makes provision requiring the views of the child to be considered in a variety of contexts, so it is entirely unclear why the member is seeking to make a change in that specific context only. Doing so would create inconsistency with the rest of the bill and inconsistency for children in how their views were obtained.

I reassure the member that the bill allows the views of children to be taken into account in a wide range of circumstances and that, where relevant to the decision or to the case in question, the child’s views of their wider family relationships will be sought and taken into account as part of the process. In addition, the bill requires the court, when making an order under section 11(1) of the 1995 act, to have regard to the effect on the child’s important non-parental relationships. Therefore, I ask the member not to press amendment 35.

I move amendment 8.

15:30  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Children (Scotland) Bill. Members should have before them the bill as amended at stage 2, the marshal...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Group 1 is on the voice of the child. Amendment 8, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 35, 12 to 16, 31 and 48.
The Minister for Community Safety (Ash Denham) SNP
The amendments in my name seek to strengthen the bill to ensure that the child’s views are heard in family court cases and children’s hearings. That is one o...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
At stage 2, as the minister and members of the committee will recall, I did not move my amendments that sought to maintain the child’s right to maintain pers...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
As I have done throughout the committee stages of the bill, I begin by declaring an interest in that my wife is a director of Relationships Scotland Orkney. ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I remind members that I am a practising solicitor and hold current practising certificates with the Law Society of Scotland and the Law Society of England an...
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Scottish Labour will support all the amendments in group 1. The Government amendments, lodged by Ash Denham, build on amendments that I lodged at stage 2 in...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
I support the Government’s amendments 8 and 12 to 16 and Liam McArthur’s amendment 48. As a member of the Justice Committee, I was clear from the get-go that...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
I join other members in supporting all the amendments in the group, except for Mr Cole-Hamilton’s amendment 35, for many of the reasons that have been outlin...
Ash Denham SNP
The bill already makes provision for the views of the child to be sought in a range of contexts, and it requires the court to take account of “the child’s im...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Group 2 is on matters to be considered in making an order under section 11(1) of the Children (Scotland) Act 1995. Amendment 9, in the name of Rhoda Grant, i...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
Amendment 9 is a technical amendment, which would remove a definition that is no longer required in the bill. Amendment 10 would amend new section 11ZA(3)(e...
Liam McArthur LD
Amendment 26 seeks to make equally shared parenting the starting basis for custody orders, but it would not prevent courts from then deciding on the most app...
John Finnie Green
The member will be aware of the position that was adopted in relation to other matters in which it would be unhelpful to have a list. Is what he seeks to do ...
Liam McArthur LD
John Finnie is right to point to the evidence that we took and some of the considerations that we weighed up during stages 1 and 2. As I said, given how rar...
Liam Kerr Con
I am happy to vote for all the amendments in the group, with the exception of Liam McArthur’s amendment 26. Again, I understand the motivation behind the am...
James Kelly Lab
I support Rhoda Grant’s sensible amendments, which would bring more consistency to the bill as amended at stage 2. I, too, oppose Liam McArthur’s amendment 2...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I do not support amendment 26, because I consider that it could have adverse consequences for child safety. In an ideal world, it is preferable for a child ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I want to express my sympathy for Liam McArthur’s amendment 26. Over the years, I have had many constituents and, in fact, others from outwith my constituenc...
Ash Denham SNP
I support amendments 9, 10 and 11, and I am grateful to Rhoda Grant for the constructive engagement that we have had on the subject. Those amendments make te...
Rhoda Grant Lab
Members will all have dealt with cases in which contact has been used to perpetrate abuse, with disastrous consequences for the abused partner and their chil...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Group 3 is on the disclosure of information. Amendment 36, in the name of Liam McArthur, is grouped with amendment 46.
Liam McArthur LD
Amendment 36 and my more substantive amendment 46 respond to concerns that were raised with the committee at stage 1 that, at present, intimate and highly se...
Liam Kerr Con
We will vote against both amendments in the group. Amendment 36 is a function of amendment 46, so I will deal with the latter in depth. Our vote against amen...
Ash Denham SNP
I support amendments 36 and 46. I am grateful to Liam McArthur for the constructive engagement that we have had on the subject, and I am pleased that a conse...
Liam McArthur LD
I thank the minister for her support and her explanation of the basis for it. I thank Liam Kerr for his comments and for engaging in debate on my amendments....
The Presiding Officer NPA
The question is, that amendment 36 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA
There will be a division. As this is the first division of the afternoon, I will suspend proceedings and we will have a short technical break, not only to su...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Colleagues, we are going to resume proceedings. We are on group 3, on disclosure of information, and Liam McArthur has moved amendment 36. Members indicated...
The Presiding Officer NPA
The result of the division is: For 86, Against 30, Abstentions 1. Amendment 36 agreed to.